timeframe on dx11

[LMA]

DX 9 can't support HDR rendering and at the same time antialiasing. So DX10 or 11 is important for a large range of contrast and brightness, colour range. For true lighting it takes a top end i7 and raytracing + global illumination software, which render a frame per minuets. So over a decade off for pure realism. Could of done more with DX9 but you might as well rewrite the rendering engine for DX11 if you're going to do it.

Bare in mind all you need Windows Vista, Win 7 or Win 8 to run DX11 graphics. XP can't even run DX10. I'm sure Farsight will add the option to run in DX9 with no AA or AA with no HDR.

 

[Biff]

For "true lighting" it would be better to have multiple top end GPUs and a decent CPU.
For DX11, you need Windows Vista, 7 or 8 and a GPU which supports DX11.

And yes, Mike already told us that a DX9 option will be available in the configuration tool.

 

[Roope]

I tell you: Never!

With a 200 people peak, which many of them are TOTAN free players... Steam is not a profitable platform.

If Steam is not profitable it is not because of Steam. I can think half of dozen good and valid reason why TPA is not successful on Steam if that is the case. But regardless of it's current success those same reason are preventing it from become a really successful game.
By far the biggest is the way the tables are being sold. It was a huge mistake from FS to not modify their game to meet the Steam requirements. Yes, it requires extra work but Valve and Steam doesn't do that to just bully developers, they get a cut from the sales.

Here is how I would have made the PC version.
Make it a normal game, not F2P because F2P tag means it is not visible on most charts on Steam. Also by labeling it F2P people expect some standards and one free table has pissed off people. Charge something 6 dollars for the core game with 4 tables in it.
Simplify the table options so that they can be purchased within Steam. All tables should be individually purchasable and season bundle to get them all.
Drop the individual Pro tables all together and sell a Pro upgrade that unlocks all the Pro option for all the tables the player has bought.
Participate on Steam Sales at least with the core game and enjoy the cashier sound.

Other big problem is the missing Steam Friends integration. People want to compete with their friends. Right now there is no way to do it and I don't know how many points my friend has on Theater of Magic. Tell me that and I will try to beat it. This is so fundamental feature on Steam that by missing it people will straight away look for something else, like Pinball FX2 which has that feature plus it has a better presence in Steam.

Steam achievements are also really bland and boring for TPA. Again look at the Pinball FX2 achievements.

Some more minor things are the graphical fidelity for PC which mainly means really low res textures.

I understand that FS is a small company but this TPA version is just not cut for the PC market. People have got used to way better and a direct port from the mobile market to PC is a really disappointment for many people who are not the diehard pinball fans.

Steam can be a really huge thing for indie developers since Steam takes a smaller cut, has a huge amount of active gamer users, is the biggest digital distribution platform and so on. If a good game like TPA should fail on Steam you really have to look at the mirror and ask yourself why it failed. The reason most likely is not because of Steam.

 

[Mike Reitmeyer]

If Steam is not profitable it is not because of Steam. I can think half of dozen good and valid reason why TPA is not successful on Steam if that is the case. But regardless of it's current success those same reason are preventing it from become a really successful game.
By far the biggest is the way the tables are being sold. It was a huge mistake from FS to not modify their game to meet the Steam requirements. Yes, it requires extra work but Valve and Steam doesn't do that to just bully developers, they get a cut from the sales.

Here is how I would have made the PC version.
Make it a normal game, not F2P because F2P tag means it is not visible on most charts on Steam. Also by labeling it F2P people expect some standards and one free table has pissed off people. Charge something 6 dollars for the core game with 4 tables in it.
Simplify the table options so that they can be purchased within Steam. All tables should be individually purchasable and season bundle to get them all.
Drop the individual Pro tables all together and sell a Pro upgrade that unlocks all the Pro option for all the tables the player has bought.
Participate on Steam Sales at least with the core game and enjoy the cashier sound.

Other big problem is the missing Steam Friends integration. People want to compete with their friends. Right now there is no way to do it and I don't know how many points my friend has on Theater of Magic. Tell me that and I will try to beat it. This is so fundamental feature on Steam that by missing it people will straight away look for something else, like Pinball FX2 which has that feature plus it has a better presence in Steam.

Steam achievements are also really bland and boring for TPA. Again look at the Pinball FX2 achievements.

Some more minor things are the graphical fidelity for PC which mainly means really low res textures.

I understand that FS is a small company but this TPA version is just not cut for the PC market. People have got used to way better and a direct port from the mobile market to PC is a really disappointment for many people who are not the diehard pinball fans.

Steam can be a really huge thing for indie developers since Steam takes a smaller cut, has a huge amount of active gamer users, is the biggest digital distribution platform and so on. If a good game like TPA should fail on Steam you really have to look at the mirror and ask yourself why it failed. The reason most likely is not because of Steam.

So what would you have done when you attempted to sell the individual tables on Steam and Valve told you "You can't do that, you need to sell them in game using the micro transaction system"?

PC isn't a port of mobile, it's a port from Xbox 360. Uses same assets, DirectX 9.0C, that comes from Xbox 360.

We chose to give away Tales for free so people would have something to play. Not sure why that's a bad thing. We also chose to allow you to play every table in a demo mode, again not sure why that's a bad thing.

Valve choose to call the game free to play. I selected Simulation as the genre, they added on Free to Play. I'm guessing cause it's required to be called Free To Play if you can download the game for free.

 

[Roope]

So what would you have done when you attempted to sell the individual tables on Steam and Valve told you "You can't do that, you need to sell them in game using the micro transaction system"?

PC isn't a port of mobile, it's a port from Xbox 360. Uses same assets, DirectX 9.0C, that comes from Xbox 360.

We chose to give away Tales for free so people would have something to play. Not sure why that's a bad thing. We also chose to allow you to play every table in a demo mode, again not sure why that's a bad thing.

Valve choose to call the game free to play. I selected Simulation as the genre, they added on Free to Play. I'm guessing cause it's required to be called Free To Play if you can download the game for free.

Like I said, you probably should have modified the game to suit better for Steam. My wild guess is that people at Steam didn't like the way you have tables, pro versions, packs and so on. Too much overlap between them to put as a DLC to Steam. I might be wrong and you should know the real reason.

You ask what I would have done? I would have dropped the ingame purchaces and done everything I said in the previous post. I can't think of any reason why that would not have been ok for Steam. If they say that still too much DLC content (I doubt), I would have bundled the tables in pairs and sold those as DLC. Anyways I would have done everything to get Steam to appove the table DLCs.

To me as a individual player who has bought the first season the F2P and free Tales is no problem. But you can surf online and in Steam discussions and in some other places you do get quite a lot of flak for being a F2P game and then only one table is free. Again, people expect some stuff from F2P games nowadays. The bigger issue is that when combined the lack of table DLCs and F2P your game has no Steam presense. You have to really look for it to find it. No list anywhere mention TPA. This is also a reason why those Steam flash sale games sell like hotcakes, they are cheap and they get visibility, "Oh that looks cool pinball game, I have to try that!"

You release your game the way you like, nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying Steam itself is not the reason if a game, any game, on PC performs poorly. PC gaming in overall would be in a really bad place right now without Steam.

 

[dada8787]

Who is saying TPA PC Steam is failing anyway? This is my second game I bought in last 3 years (first was BF4 ) And I bought all seasons. All my friends bought game also (5 of them!).
This is already 600 $ in FS pocket .
But yes, lack of Steam Friends integration or any other friends list hurts.

 

[AshleyAshes]

I asked in a live stream about the sales on Steam, nothing specific, just if they were 'happy' with what they got. The response was that Steam generated more revenue than expected. So I think any 'explanation' as to why the Steam port is not profitable is silly, because it seems it is profitable and that FarSight is happy so far. Looking at SteamCharts.com, TPA was stronger than FX2 prior to their crazy humble discount and since then, while now weaker against FX2, not to any sort of crushing stance by far.

I think everything here is more or less fine, with the only real failing being 'Pinball is not considered as cool as DotA 2', but I'd hardly fault FarSight for that.

 

[Jeff Strong]

You ask what I would have done? I would have dropped the ingame purchaces and done everything I said in the previous post. I can't think of any reason why that would not have been ok for Steam. If they say that still too much DLC content (I doubt), I would have bundled the tables in pairs and sold those as DLC. Anyways I would have done everything to get Steam to appove the table DLCs.

He already told you that Valve wouldn't let them do that. In fact it caused the release to be delayed even further because they had the code in place for that, but Valve told them to re-do it all to make the table packs purchasable within the game... so you can doubt all you want, but it only makes you look like a tool.

 

[Roope]

He already told you that Valve wouldn't let them do that. In fact it caused the release to be delayed even further because they had the code in place for that, but Valve told them to re-do it all to make the table packs purchasable within the game... so you can doubt all you want, but it only makes you look like a tool.

Huoh...
Yes he told me that Steam forced them to do so but I have my doubts why. Since I don't know the reason I can only speculate.

Here are btw couple of interesting stories about Steam and indie developers.

http://kotaku.com/steam-sale-turns-0-99-game-into-blockbuster-1493510887
Indie game made more money in 8-hours than in the year combined.

http://www.dphrygian.com/wordpress/?p=104
Indie game outsells its full autumn sale overnight and rakes huge profit by one single sale.

The point here is that Steam and visibility on Steam is absolutely necessary for PC titles (especially indie ones) today. These titles that let's be honest don't look that good made a lot of money for their developers just because they happened to get a spotlight even for a short period of time.
Thus claiming that Steam is not profitable platform is just not true. An excellent game like TPA should have no problems to perform well, if done right.

 

[Biff]

Thus claiming that Steam is not profitable platform is just not true.

So far, that's the opinion of only one user here. (Lalocage: Steam is not a profitable platform)
Get over it.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Huoh...
Here are btw couple of interesting stories about Steam and indie developers.

http://kotaku.com/steam-sale-turns-0-99-game-into-blockbuster-1493510887
Indie game made more money in 8-hours than in the year combined.

http://www.dphrygian.com/wordpress/?p=104
Indie game outsells its full autumn sale overnight and rakes huge profit by one single sale.

The point here is that Steam and visibility on Steam is absolutely necessary for PC titles (especially indie ones) today. These titles that let's be honest don't look that good made a lot of money for their developers just because they happened to get a spotlight even for a short period of time.

Those games made headlines because they are the exceptions, not the rule. For every indie game that has a blockbuster sale, hundreds of others have a sale and do nothing but inflate their units sold at the expense of their profitability.

Don't forget that TPA has a lot of per-unit royalties that have to be paid as well. Most indie games don't have that. So there's a limit on how much of a discount FarSight can offer and still be able to pay their licensors.

 

[superballs]

I was just going to ask who actually said that Steam wasn't profitable for Farsight. Biff answered, but was that answer for Steam in general or for TPA?

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

I was just going to ask who actually said that Steam wasn't profitable for Farsight. Biff answered, but was that answer for Steam in general or for TPA?

I think the determination was that TPA on Steam was profitable for FarSight and that it had exceeded their expectations.

 

[superballs]

That's what I recalled. Maybe the thought process used is "i don't like something about TPA = failure"

 

[Mike Reitmeyer]

I think the determination was that TPA on Steam was profitable for FarSight and that it had exceeded their expectations.

While I don't know the sales numbers, this is the impression I got as well. And it's doing well enough that I've not been told to stop supporting it. So I wouldn't consider it a failure.

 

[nepo]

(full) cap support + linux support = awesome!!

I would instantly buy all seasons and pro upgrades. VP is great, but I would prefer to use linux on my cap. Steam is an issue for caps of course, a standalone version (for linux!) of TPA would be a dream - but I understand some DRM is necessary. Please hurry up!

 

[Roo]

If Steam is not profitable it is not because of Steam. I can think half of dozen good and valid reason why TPA is not successful on Steam if that is the case. But regardless of it's current success those same reason are preventing it from become a really successful game.
By far the biggest is the way the tables are being sold. It was a huge mistake from FS to not modify their game to meet the Steam requirements. Yes, it requires extra work but Valve and Steam doesn't do that to just bully developers, they get a cut from the sales.

Here is how I would have made the PC version.
Make it a normal game, not F2P because F2P tag means it is not visible on most charts on Steam. Also by labeling it F2P people expect some standards and one free table has pissed off people. Charge something 6 dollars for the core game with 4 tables in it.
Simplify the table options so that they can be purchased within Steam. All tables should be individually purchasable and season bundle to get them all.
Drop the individual Pro tables all together and sell a Pro upgrade that unlocks all the Pro option for all the tables the player has bought.
Participate on Steam Sales at least with the core game and enjoy the cashier sound.

Other big problem is the missing Steam Friends integration. People want to compete with their friends. Right now there is no way to do it and I don't know how many points my friend has on Theater of Magic. Tell me that and I will try to beat it. This is so fundamental feature on Steam that by missing it people will straight away look for something else, like Pinball FX2 which has that feature plus it has a better presence in Steam.

Steam achievements are also really bland and boring for TPA. Again look at the Pinball FX2 achievements.

Some more minor things are the graphical fidelity for PC which mainly means really low res textures.

I understand that FS is a small company but this TPA version is just not cut for the PC market. People have got used to way better and a direct port from the mobile market to PC is a really disappointment for many people who are not the diehard pinball fans.

Steam can be a really huge thing for indie developers since Steam takes a smaller cut, has a huge amount of active gamer users, is the biggest digital distribution platform and so on. If a good game like TPA should fail on Steam you really have to look at the mirror and ask yourself why it failed. The reason most likely is not because of Steam.

Well there are always going to be people wanting more for less and you can't please everyone. I think the DLC table model for pinball just doesn't fit into any existing mold used by any platforms very well. There is no "base game" to speak of, really - each table is like it's own game. It's hard to fully categorize it as F2P or a "complete" game and thus you get a lot of misunderstandings either way depending on what people are expecting from a certain label.

I agree that anything they can do to get more people to at least download and try the game could help tremendously in the long run. This isn't an indie platformer or something that you beat in 5 hours and never touch again. If you can get people to try it (through any sort of marketing/promotion/etc), some percentage of them will get addicted and start buying more tables. Speaking from personal experience and from a lot of comments I've seen on pinball forums (both real and virtual), pinball is the type thing people often try thinking, "oh, that will be a cool little diversion". Then they get more and more addicted and start seeking out more tables. I started out playing some Future Pinball on my MAME cabinet because it had some pinball buttons on the side, then discovered FX2, then real pinball, then TPA, etc. 2 years ago I had played pinball maybe once or twice in my life; now I'm hopelessly addicted.

But regardless it sounds like it's doing ok and I think you were a little harsh on some points. Give it some time and we should see some of the features/improvements you are talking about.

 

[Megahurtz]

Those games made headlines because they are the exceptions, not the rule. For every indie game that has a blockbuster sale, hundreds of others have a sale and do nothing but inflate their units sold at the expense of their profitability.

Don't forget that TPA has a lot of per-unit royalties that have to be paid as well. Most indie games don't have that. So there's a limit on how much of a discount FarSight can offer and still be able to pay their licensors.

Count me in on the should have participated in the Steam sale boat. I just read this article on Gamasutra from a GAFer who made Cook, Serve, Delicious!

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/DavidGal...much_do_indie_PC_devs_make_anyways_Part_V.php

Short version: Daily sales tripled when it was 50% off in the Thanksgiving and Christmas sales. For the 8 hours it was on sale for 75% off as a flash sale, it sold over 20,000 copies and grossed over $50,000. Daily sales doubled for the rest of the Christmas sale. Daily sales leveled back off to normal a week after the sale ended. Mobile platforms all saw a bump during the Steam sale.

 

[Crawley]

Well there are always going to be people wanting more for less and you can't please everyone. I think the DLC table model for pinball just doesn't fit into any existing mold used by any platforms very well. There is no "base game" to speak of, really - each table is like it's own game. It's hard to fully categorize it as F2P or a "complete" game and thus you get a lot of misunderstandings either way depending on what people are expecting from a certain label.

I agree that anything they can do to get more people to at least download and try the game could help tremendously in the long run. This isn't an indie platformer or something that you beat in 5 hours and never touch again. If you can get people to try it (through any sort of marketing/promotion/etc), some percentage of them will get addicted and start buying more tables. Speaking from personal experience and from a lot of comments I've seen on pinball forums (both real and virtual), pinball is the type thing people often try thinking, "oh, that will be a cool little diversion". Then they get more and more addicted and start seeking out more tables. I started out playing some Future Pinball on my MAME cabinet because it had some pinball buttons on the side, then discovered FX2, then real pinball, then TPA, etc. 2 years ago I had played pinball maybe once or twice in my life; now I'm hopelessly addicted.

But regardless it sounds like it's doing ok and I think you were a little harsh on some points. Give it some time and we should see some of the features/improvements you are talking about.

I imagine they'll expect a decent bump in people buying seasons once the DX11 update comes out. Better to get those people with the current set season prices than previously with sale prices. Can always do sales after the DX11 update to bring in the rest that have held out.

 

[AshleyAshes]

I have heard that the marketing people at FarSight didn't see the PC as a large priority, even if now it's generated more revenue than expected, those same people probably aren't in tune with what will and won't work in the current arena of online digital download sales for PC. On the other hand, someone authorized a Linux port so maybe things will change.

On that note, there's plenty of other times to put something on sale on Steam. Weekend sales, weekly sales, smaller 'big sales' like what we saw at Thanksgiving. Steam is more than just two big sales a year after all.