Too easy tables (PC version)

[JPelter]

I think honestly "too easy" is subjective and a matter of opinion as it related to the OP.

I find some tables "easy" that aren't listed as such.

Does anyone agree with me?

I agree. I also think some tables are challenging that were listed as easy. It's just the OP's subjective opinion on tables, and shouldn't be taken as objective fact, nor do I think it was meant to be. It just segued into general discussion about table difficulty and possible settings to change that and all that good stuff. I think it's a worthwhile discussion to have, but I'm just a dude playing pinballs.

 

[Jeff Strong]

I agree. I also think some tables are challenging that were listed as easy. It's just the OP's subjective opinion on tables, and shouldn't be taken as objective fact, nor do I think it was meant to be. It just segued into general discussion about table difficulty and possible settings to change that and all that good stuff. I think it's a worthwhile discussion to have, but I'm just a dude playing pinballs.

Well said

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

...Once again, I don't want an argument...

For someone who doesn't want an argument, you're doing a hell of a lot of arguing.

You asked where the 90% statement came from; I gave you an answer. That you don't seem to like the evidence I can't help, but I can assure you that taking the time to enter 5000 scores into Excel and analyze them is far different than "pure guesswork"...and requires far more effort than looking up a single score - your own - and claiming it alone provides counterevidence.

I am not going to make forum members provide footnotes and citations every time they use a percentage here. This is not Wikipedia. Nor will I continue to tolerate your insinuations that I am somehow incompetent or irresponsible for making a statistical statement.

This subject is now over. The distraction to the original topic has gone on long enough.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

I agree. I also think some tables are challenging that were listed as easy. It's just the OP's subjective opinion on tables, and shouldn't be taken as objective fact, nor do I think it was meant to be. It just segued into general discussion about table difficulty and possible settings to change that and all that good stuff. I think it's a worthwhile discussion to have, but I'm just a dude playing pinballs.

And now back on-topic, my thoughts on difficulty in a nutshell along with some commentary on the elitism angle, from nearly a year ago when this issue last was front and center:

Why Difficulty Matters - or - Who Does This Elitist @#$%! Think He Is, Anyway?

And before any more sideshows erupt: Yes, this is strictly subjective opinion.

 

[JPelter]

And now back on-topic, my thoughts on difficulty in a nutshell along with some commentary on the elitism angle, from nearly a year ago when this issue last was front and center:

Why Difficulty Matters - or - Who Does This Elitist @#$%! Think He Is, Anyway?

And before any more sideshows erupt: Yes, this is strictly subjective opinion.

I really like that writeup a lot. I somehow missed the discussions at the time, but it pretty much mirrors what I think. Consider a table like TZ. On a real table even thinking about doing stuff like chaining multiple lost in the zones for score would be totally laughable for pretty much anyone at all. It becomes fairly trivial in the TPA version once you learn the shots (for some % of players for some definitions of trivial I am not a lawyer please don't yell at me), and more importantly it becomes really boring. I really just want to cut down on the playtimes on these tables and, like you said in the article, to make achieving table goals actually seem meaningful. This doesn't mean just make everything harder rar rar either. Just make different difficulty levels for the tables exist at the same time so people can choose how they want to do it.

To break it down even further using the example of TZ and describe why the table is "wrong" in TPA: There isn't a single shot needed for progression on the table that doesn't have an absolutely 100% safe return if you make that shot, and almost all of those shots are extremely easy. Fight the Power is the only thing you "have" to clear towards LITZ (because you really want the ramp shots usable) that has a potentially very hazardous consequences, and even that only happens if you fail the mode. The ramps need to be harder to hit or the feed from the slot machine needs to be severely more unpredictable or higher velocity to fix any of the current problems there I think.

There are some tables where simply disabling extra balls would go a long way. Funhouse is a prime example. You could in theory play a long time even with just 3, but in practice the main reason the table seems so easy is that you can chain extra balls off the mirror really fast.

 

[Roo]

And now back on-topic, my thoughts on difficulty in a nutshell along with some commentary on the elitism angle, from nearly a year ago when this issue last was front and center:

Why Difficulty Matters - or - Who Does This Elitist @#$%! Think He Is, Anyway?

And before any more sideshows erupt: Yes, this is strictly subjective opinion.

I agree with that blog post. Achieving something that's difficult is the best feeling there is. Many of my best video game memories are from conquering such challenges, like getting Platinum medals on every event in Project Gotham Racing 2, for example.

A pinball example - defeating the final dragon boss on the Epic Quest table in Pinball FX 2. The way it works is you have to defeat all 12 regular enemies before unlocking the dragon battle and if you lose to him, it sets you back to like 9 so it's not that easy to fight your way back in the same game (I may have done that once). I had gotten to him about 4 times previously over the course of 25+ hours of play, but lost each time. As you fight, you have to hit one of the correct shots to block or attack every 10 seconds, or he hits you. Not too bad for most enemies but the dragon is so tough that if he hits you twice, you lose. It was so intense that I remember my heart was pounding and my palms were sweating. It was hard enough to get there that I really didn't want to waste another chance. Even shots I had hit 1000 times before felt harder. I had to tell myself to calm down and focus on the shots, not the timer I knew was ticking away. I finally got the last hit in with barely any time left on the clock (while on my last ball)...and it was just the best feeling there is.

By contrast, I got to the wizard modes in TOTAN and STTNG in TPA in about 2 and 7 games, respectively, despite not knowing the tables very well. It was cool, but definitely not the same feeling of accomplishment. Granted, I'm sure there are harder wizard modes to reach on other tables, and I still have a ton of room for improvement on my strategy and score on those tables. And I'm still having a lot of fun playing those tables, too. But after playing many real tables at the Chicago Expo last month, TPA definitely feels easier.

 

[norbert26]

TPA will always be easier then RL tables.
1) you can sit comfortably and set your devices up in an optimal way that works for you.
2) coining is not an issue. You have unlimited free plays as long as time allows.
3) because it is virtual pinball video game characteristics will apply. Certain patterns may repeat / not be random enough.
4) the pro menus on tables that have it already have this ability to turn off extra balls or make them a credit instead. The issue is the penalty for goals and leaderboards disqualified for changing operator settings. If a few settings were allowed to be changed we would have easy , normal and hard , tourney settings. the issue is the work to do extra testing to tie it in with goals .

 

[kristian]

Well put JPelter. Exactly my thoughts.

I don't understand the whole argument about "elitism" or "god-like players". They're not excuses... some tables in TPA are MUCH easier than their real life counterparts. Period. If achieving the genuine-like gameplay and difficulty level isn't even the goal, why trying to "simulate and emulate" the real machines in the first place?

TPA is, after all, a pinball simulation and emulation. In my view, the realism should always be the primary target of such program.

 

[AshleyAshes]

If achieving the genuine-like gameplay and difficulty level isn't even the goal, why trying to "simulate and emulate" the real machines in the first place?

Step 1) Exploit nostalgia
Step 2) Make money

 

[Miguel Paulo]

It is clear that real machines are far harder challenge. The PC tables are too easy. An average game for a newcomer on a real table doesn't exceed 10 minutes most of the time. On Pc PBA, you can last 30 mins at first attempt. This is the most unrealistic part of the emulation

 

[norbert26]

It is clear that real machines are far harder challenge. The PC tables are too easy. An average game for a newcomer on a real table doesn't exceed 10 minutes most of the time. On Pc PBA, you can last 30 mins at first attempt. This is the most unrealistic part of the emulation

try firepower, flight 2000 and maybe big shot on 3 balls.

 

[Dan]

i kinda find this new eleitist debate annoying.

Nothing to do with elitism here. I generally suck at pinball and yet I have played 1 hr games in TPA. It quickly gets boring, while most of it's RL and VP counterparts are always challenging.
As a customer and pinball fan I am looking for hard, honest games that are challenging and don't feel like pussified emulations, excuse my language.

 

[wolfson]

hey fellas we seem to be going back and forth.there is one solution to keep everyone and that is for farsight to put 3 setting into the game,EASY HARD EXTRA BLOODY HARD. I think this will solve everyones wishes. IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE FROM FARSIGHT WHO MIGHT HELP US PLEASE ?

 

[Deltaechoe]

Oh I know, separate leaderboards for different table setups. A normal leaderboard that we have already, an expert mode leaderboard and a tournament mode leaderboard

 

[Dan]

hey fellas we seem to be going back and forth.there is one solution to keep everyone and that is for farsight to put 3 setting into the game,EASY HARD EXTRA BLOODY HARD. I think this will solve everyones wishes. IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE FROM FARSIGHT WHO MIGHT HELP US PLEASE ?

Hear, hear.

 

[vpalmer]

After playing Genie for a night though, I can tell you, not all the tables got easy

Genie (and any other table of that kind like Big Shot and so on) is "hard" at this moment only because PC version got broken nudging - you can not get little shake without probability of freaking random TILT - i loose count how many times i failed for wizard goals on this tables because of that.
at this point you simply can not play all this tables seriously - you can luanch them, see on the playfield, lunch ball and watch how it bounce on bumpers, even try to get some shots if you lacky enough to get ball on them, but you can not control the ball, because you can not take it from slingshots on horizontal jumps, or take ball from SDTM move to the flippers more than few times during ball (otherwise you get TILT).

FS bring back nudge as it is in PS3 version ! ! ! ! ! ! !

 

[JPelter]

Genie (and any other table of that kind like Big Shot and so on) is "hard" at this moment only because PC version got broken nudging - you can not get little shake without probability of freaking random TILT - i loose count how many times i failed for wizard goals on this tables because of that.
at this point you simply can not play all this tables seriously - you can luanch them, see on the playfield, lunch ball and watch how it bounce on bumpers, even try to get some shots if you lacky enough to get ball on them, but you can not control the ball, because you can not take it from slingshots on horizontal jumps, or take ball from SDTM move to the flippers more than few times during ball (otherwise you get TILT).

FS bring back nudge as it is in PS3 version ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Actually never mind I was going to note that big shot has a pretty lenient tilt but that's beside the point. The nudging does need to be fixed at least somewhat. The worst is that diagonal nudging will autotilt you due to it not even being diagonal at all.

 

[Hef Hughner]

I beat wizard Goals for tables like Big Shot, Central Park etc. so i'm not completely incompetent playing this game but... i just rage quit Circus Voltaire for the second time. The outlanes are crazy. I counted it: 8 out of 10 times the ball is in the outlane-area it bounces out. I must miss something or do something completely wrong. Any help?

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

I beat wizard Goals for tables like Big Shot, Central Park etc. so i'm not completely incompetent playing this game but... i just rage quit Circus Voltaire for the second time. The outlanes are crazy. I counted it: 8 out of 10 times the ball is in the outlane-area it bounces out. I must miss something or do something completely wrong. Any help?

In general, you want to keep the ball out of the side areas to begin with; once it's there you're already in trouble. Basically you want to diagonal nudge either to get the ball to hit the top of the slingshot and bounce off instead of falling in the outlane area, or failing that, diagonal nudge to try to slam the side wall into the ball and pop it back up and over the slingshot.

If the ball is already fully in the side area, nudge left or right to get it to select the inlane, but you need to use a very light nudge. A full strength nudge will send the ball bouncing off the slingshot and into the outlane for sure.

Also, it may not be you. Many PC users are reporting that analog nudging is broken in the current release.

 

[JPelter]

In general, you want to keep the ball out of the side areas to begin with; once it's there you're already in trouble. Basically you want to diagonal nudge either to get the ball to hit the top of the slingshot and bounce off instead of falling in the outlane area, or failing that, diagonal nudge to try to slam the side wall into the ball and pop it back up and over the slingshot.

If the ball is already fully in the side area, nudge left or right to get it to select the inlane, but you need to use a very light nudge. A full strength nudge will send the ball bouncing off the slingshot and into the outlane for sure.

Also, it may not be you. Many PC users are reporting that analog nudging is broken in the current release.

The biggest problem really is that diagonal nudging doesn't work as a diagonal nudge, it works like a horizontal nudge + a vertical nudge. You're going to cap the tilt meter almost guaranteed with a single application. At least with CV you have a couple warnings to play with, but you really need to be use them judiciously.