Top 5-10 Pinballs every made - Pro talk

[mpad]

Cactus Canyon sucks monkey balls.

Not true! It's one of my favourites.
I ignored it a long time, until I spent some hours with it.
Great implementation of the theme.
Nice toys. Funny dialogues.
And better flow than you think. The timed modes bring some tension to the game. Gunshot mode is genius.

Oh, and to stay true to this thread, the scoring is OK I guess.

 

[Tarek Oberdieck]

Not true! It's one of my favourites.
I ignored it a long time, until I spent some hours with it.
Great implementation of the theme.
Nice toys. Funny dialogues.
And better flow than you think. The timed modes bring some tension to the game. Gunshot mode is genius.

Oh, and to stay true to this thread, the scoring is OK I guess.

I disagree. CC is for sure not in my top ten list. There's only one exception. The Showdown Mode is well done.

 

[jonesjb]

No more word from the Pet3r, the topic creator? I've been enjoying his posted analyses, they were quite insightful.

 

[PET3R]

PART 1

Thank you for your patience, I have been very busy at work, family but specially at researching, analysing and playing lot of pinball (both TPA & IRL).

I have read through over 100 pinball rulesheets starting from beginning of 90's (DMD) all the way to present time, and I have discovered very interesting fact.
Everyone will agree that pinball is evolving and it is no more just about beating the highest score. There is much more to it– goal (wizard mode) and the experience of getting there. Great pinball is very memorable because of 3 stages -

a) journey towards the wizard mode
b) wizard mode it self
c) what comes once the wizard has been reached and beaten

Therefore it seems that most of the time the longer and more dificult the journey the deeper ruleset and experience as well as joy from beating the goal.

Let's first categorise some tables. (doing all from memory so some tables might be in wrong category as well as there are some not mentioned)

pre DMD (pre 90's) tables: No wizard, no journey or only mini wizard which can be reached very easily. So the rules and gameplay feels very light and does not leave a strong memorable experience.

90's pinball:

Modes:
a) Addams Family, Twilight Zone, Indiana Jones, *(Arabian Nights). Judge Dredd, Demolition Man, Lethal Weapon 3, Last action hero, Tales from the crypt, The who's tommy, Guns n RosesDirty Harry, Baywatch, Batman Forever, Apollo 13, Goldeneye, Jurrasic Park, No Fear, Cue Ball Wizard

you can reach the wizard very easily as you will get there even if you perform poorly during the modes. You don't even have to play them.

Modes that affect Wizard:
b) Start Trek NG, Johnny Mnemonic, Family Guy, Frankenstein, Road Show, Freddie nightmare,

better sollution to group A, but modes can still be skipped and reaching wizard is still quite easy as you do not need to perfom well.

Modes + Goals:
c) Theathre of Magic, The Shadow, Stargate, Big Bang Bar

combination of A and D but skipping the modes is still the problem.

No Modes/only goals
d) Attack from Mars, Medieval Madness, Cactus Canyon, White Water, Scared Stiff, Creature from the black lagoon, Cirqus Voltaire, Pinball Magic

reaching the wizard means you have completed everything and did not skip anything.It is not easy to achieve and therefore very satisfying once done.

Multiball only:
e)Dracula, Csi (stern), Twister
e2) Godzilla, 24 (stern), Big Buck Hunter (stern)

e) no wizard mode, e2) wizard mode
No variety, too linear, if you don't reach the final jackpot you start at the bottom.
Exception: Godzilla – more on that later

Luck based:
f) who dunnit, high roller, champion pub, wheel of fortune, world poker tour, jackbot, Starship Troppers,

features like roulets in who dunnit and high roller or random award of wizard mode in Starship Troopers takes away from competitivnes as the table is based on luck rather than skill.

Unique/Uncategorized:
g) Monster Bash (South Park, Austin Powers (stern))
Rescue 911
Congo
Doctor Who

More on this later

Stern (2000's)
a) Ripley, Lord of the Rings,
b) Iron Man, Avatar, Rolling Stones, Avengers, X-Men, Tron
c) Monopoly, Simpsons pinball party, Pirates of the Carribean, Elvis, Spider Man, Batman, Transformers, Metallica, AC/DC, Star Trek, Mustang, Walking Dead, Kiss, Game of Thrones, Terminator 3

a) perfect solution to groups A & B & C of 90's
b) perfect marriage/combination of group D of 90's and Monster Bash. Start all goals to get secondary wizard, finish them all to get main wizard mode.
c) some of the other good Stern tables where the wizard is much harder to reach compared to groups A,B,C of 90's, as you have to successfully finish the goals

 

[invitro]

PET3R -- I look forward in particular to your appraisal of Stern tables. I have played Mustang, Avengers, and Iron Man since you left off your series.

I will say that to me, the competitive part of pinball is still chiefly about getting the high score. Of course a key reason why we love pinball so much is that competition is just one of so many ways to enjoy pinball... competition is a huge part of pinball to me, while it doesn't even register to many other people.

 

[PET3R]

PET3R -- I look forward in particular to your appraisal of Stern tables. I have played Mustang, Avengers, and Iron Man since you left off your series.

I will say that to me, the competitive part of pinball is still chiefly about getting the high score. Of course a key reason why we love pinball so much is that competition is just one of so many ways to enjoy pinball... competition is a huge part of pinball to me, while it doesn't even register to many other people.

I absolutely agree with you, the high score to me is the number one reason I play pinball, but I will prefer beating you in LOTR compared to Cyclone.

I have feeling there is some hate against Stern going on as well as nostalgia to old tables at the same time. People who can't move on. TAF and Ripley in pinside is perfect example. The both tables have same layout but Ripley blows TAF out of the water. Those who don't trust me, give it a try and play only these two tables for 2 weeks.
I have a great respect to TAF and I understand it revolutionised the pinball, but no 7, seriously ? It was great in early 90's, but we are already somewhere else.
I can finally start seeing Stern getting more and more into top 30 and even top 10. In my opinion they do really good with the rulesets. Tried few in real life and they all felt great. Have had chance to try TZ recently and what a disappointment it was. I understand why some people might like it, but to me it is definitely not in 2nd place. And after my rules analysis it is now out of my top 10.
Can you please give me a comment on Avengers and Iron Man ? Both seems to have great ruleset on the paper. I wonder why do they rank so low in pinside ? Would you have the answer ?
This is why I can't wait for stern app, to be able to try all these tables because on the paper it seems they should give a great experience due to deep ruleset.

 

[invitro]

Actually I have some pretty extreme "hatred" for Stern. I loved and love the WMS 1980's and 1990's tables probably more than any other inanimate object in the world, and fell into a long, deep depression when WMS did Pinball 2000 and then closed shop, and Stern took over. Stern may have decent rules, but the few tables of theirs I've played don't come anywhere close to the WMS quality of everything else. I don't want to go down that rabbit hole right now...

But I'm trying hard to be open minded and give all Stern tables a solid try... I was actually very, very excited to finally be playing real new pinball machines again after about five years (!) when I played those three Sterns. But I only played Avengers and Iron Man about three times, and Mustang about five times... my pinball is so rusty I was just trying to keep the ball in play and hit the blinking lights, although I did get Grand Champion on Mustang. And I'm not good at picking up on rules quickly, anyway. So no comments here. Except they are ugly as sin. But the shots are pretty fun, these three tables are not generic crap like Sega was doing in the late 1990's. I liked Mustang quite a bit. The location is 1.5 hours away but I hope to go back next week, or maybe drive the same distance in a different direction to find other Sterns.

I'm greatly looking forward to Stern Pinball Arcade for the same reason, and also because whatever they release has a high probability of being brand-new to me.

 

[jonesjb]

I don't hate Stern per se, actually to me I think Stern (post 2000) falls into 3 categories:

Games that get boring fast, simple shots that get repetitive:
Elvis, Sopranos, Indiana Jones, High Roller Casino

Games that have a very complex rule set, which I haven't put enough time in and don't understand yet, and I'd like to get to know more before I judge (this falls on my failing, the Stern app will help out here):
Spiderman
Tron
Metallica (tried it, didn't get it, must be missing something).

And great games with a complex rule set, and/or multiple wizard modes, and are very impressive (like Pet3r admires):
Lord of the Rings, Simpsons, and Walking Dead (check this one out)!

In terms of appeal think Williams has a few things on Stern, I'm not saying these are all logical points of comparison:
-Criticism that comes along with Stern being a monopoly.
-Williams has better artwork (not reliant on photoshop).
-Complex rule sets, but ones that are accessible (you don't need to read up to fully understand it), this isn't a bad thing for Stern, but means that Williams could appeal out on route to the masses, whereas to really get a Stern machine by playing (and not reading), you'd need to spend a lot of time on it or own it in home. Once again, not a negative.
-Strong designers and programmers - Walking Dead again. Many of which now work on Stern. This is where Williams makes 1 + 1 =3, and the table designs and rulesets all work together to be fun and more than a sum of its parts.

 

[invitro]

-Complex rule sets, but ones that are accessible (you don't need to read up to fully understand it), this isn't a bad thing for Stern, but means that Williams could appeal out on route to the masses, whereas to really get a Stern machine by playing (and not reading), you'd need to spend a lot of time on it or own it in home. Once again, not a negative.

I actually like tables better when they are new, or maybe sometime after 5 to 10 plays, when I don't understand them, and not understanding them is a big reason why. Figuring out the rules is one of the most fun parts of pinball for me. Knowing all the rules certainly doesn't kill a table, but I'm less interested in it then, assuming I know a good strategy to go along with the rules. This may be common among pinball fanatics, I have no idea but I'm curious.

In general I find WMS to be far more creative than Stern. Original themes, licensed themes, art, shots, innovations, sound, just everything. I'm sure Stern has some innovations and creativity somewhere but I haven't seen it in the tables I've played. Creativity isn't everything but it's a big deal to me.

 

[kinggo]

PART 1

pre DMD (pre 90's) tables: No wizard, no journey or only mini wizard which can be reached very easily. So the rules and gameplay feels very light and does not leave a strong memorable experience.

you are so wrong on this one. 1000 pages rule set does not mean a great game. Look at NF, 5 basic modes and 3 "wizard" modes and yet, they all feel the same and game is quite boring and repetitive. Sometimes is much more fun to lit five targets, collect some letters and pick up the jackpot. And then do that again then pouring coins and grinding for something that maybe 1 out of 1000 players will achieve in 1 out of 1000 games.

 

[PET3R]

Sometimes is much more fun to lit five targets, collect some letters and pick up the jackpot.

You are right. First of all, notice that you have used word fun. I can have a great fun playing little racing game on my phone, but this is very different experience to playing through whole career of Forza or NFS. It is about possibilities which guarantees you a deeper experience and lastability. Playing Forza or NFS draws much longer and more detailed story, while my mobile game is finished in 5 minutes. It is only matter of time when it starts feeling repetitive and I will get bored of it.

Secondly, you are using a bad example for your comparison. Compare any DMD with LOTR, MM, AFM or MB that do it right.

 

[PET3R]

-Criticism that comes along with Stern being a monopoly.
-Williams has better artwork (not reliant on photoshop).
-Complex rule sets, but ones that are accessible (you don't need to read up to fully understand it), this isn't a bad thing for Stern, but means that Williams could appeal out on route to the masses, whereas to really get a Stern machine by playing (and not reading), you'd need to spend a lot of time on it or own it in home. Once again, not a negative.

some very good points.

a) Monopoly - this is changing now as there are other companies that starting to compete with Stern. I am very happy for this as it is only going to make pinball better.

b) Artwork - I understand some might prefer hand drawn artwork but we live in a digital world and to be honest I think the photoshoped cabinets and especially playfields make more sense. I much prefer some of the Stern's clean and elegant playfields compared to drawn ones like MB. For example MM playfield looks too busy to me, that is why I always preferred more simple one like AFM. I don't need drawings of the monsters on the playfield. I want the important information to be very visible and easy to see, without any distraction. Therefore playfields that I really like are mostly the clean ones from Stern: Star Trek, Game of Thrones, Spiderman, Tron, Batman, Iron Man, Pirates of the Carribean. Just compare MM and Stern's Star Trek or Game of Thrones to see what I am talking about.

c) complex rules sets - briliant observation! You are right about complex rule sets not being very accessible but I think Stern app is going change this. I feel pinball is becoming much more than just popping in to your local place to kill a few minutes and have fun. I can see the rulesets becoming ever more complex and allow more strategies and possibilities. I am sure that what we see is just a beginning to a much deeper pinball.

 

[jonesjb]

some very good points.
b) Artwork - I understand some might prefer hand drawn artwork but we live in a digital world and to be honest I think the photoshoped cabinets and especially playfields make more sense. I much prefer some of the Stern's clean and elegant playfields compared to drawn ones like MB. For example MM playfield looks too busy to me, that is why I always preferred more simple one like AFM. I don't need drawings of the monsters on the playfield. I want the important information to be very visible and easy to see, without any distraction. Therefore playfields that I really like are mostly the clean ones from Stern: Star Trek, Game of Thrones, Spiderman, Tron, Batman, Iron Man, Pirates of the Carribean. Just compare MM and Stern's Star Trek or Game of Thrones to see what I am talking about.

Ok, I don't technically mean artwork that was created in PhotoShop, as a lot of vector/hand drawn/digital art are all created using PhotoShop. And I'm not talking about clean, negative space etc. What I mean is that much of Stern's artwork is subpar to Williams due to it being a collage of photos. It comes across as lazy, rather than refashioning something for purpose... It looks like they just copy a whole bunch of photos, put them together and are done with it. Actually the hand drawn artwork tends to be cleaner (something important when you are trying to follow a moving ball), the colors are flat; compare this with photo montage Stern... photos make it busier because of all of the detail in the photos. For example, compare:

-The subpar Stern Indiana Jones to the Williams one.

-Bally/Williams isn't always better (yes this example has nothing to do with Stern)... compare the subpar photographic Bally artwork for The Shadow translite with the beautiful Aurich alternate Shadow translite, (Google it) of which the latter would have created digitally. See it has nothing to do with digital/non-digital, but when art is reliant on photographs, it tends to look worse and less timeless (and it's just that Stern tends to rely on photographs more).

 

[invitro]

Ok, I don't technically mean artwork that was created in PhotoShop, as a lot of vector/hand drawn/digital art are all created using PhotoShop. And I'm not talking about clean, negative space etc. What I mean is that much of Stern's artwork is subpar to Williams due to it being a collage of photos. It comes across as lazy, rather than refashioning something for purpose... It looks like they just copy a whole bunch of photos, put them together and are done with it. Actually the hand drawn artwork tends to be cleaner (something important when you are trying to follow a moving ball), the colors are flat; compare this with photo montage Stern... photos make it busier because of all of the detail in the photos.

+1, but it's not just photos. Stern's artists also just push buttons in their photoshop program to make cheap, lazy effects like drop shadow and other things that I don't know the name of. There's lots of detail about this in posts on Pinside about the Game of Thrones art (which I don't find any worse than other Stern art fwiw).

He might be right about it being a general trend... anti-creativity is one of the tentpoles* of postmodernism, and postmodernism has had a chokehold on art for a long time now.

* source: Postmodernism - Heartney, Eleanor, 1954- - Cambridge, U.K. ; New York, N.Y. : Cambridge University Press, c2001.

 

[jonesjb]

I found this blog article to be an interesting post, he methodologically goes through to find the top 10 pinball machines and ranks them:
http://gameroomblog.com/features/what-really-are-the-top-ten-modern-pinball-machines-of-all-time

The final list is:
Twilight Zone
Monster Bash
Medieval Madness
The Addams Family
Attack from Mars
White Water
Scared Stiff
Star Trek: The Next Generation
AC/DC (Premium/LE)
Cirqus Voltaire

 

[JustinCamp]

I am failing to understand the lack of LOTR on here (although I have not read every page). It is the most score challenging to me of the bunch, is it because it is too deep for high scorers who will just do multiballs instead of completing the goals?

 

[vikingerik]

I think the lack of LOTR is more because this is a TPA forum and we're all playing TPA and most of us haven't even played a real LOTR table. Nothing outside of TPA has had any more than a glimpse of a brief mention here.

It certainly belongs; IPDB has it ranked #11 and it's always right up there in discussions as long as people aren't engaging in reflexive Stern bashing.

 

[jonesjb]

I've played some Walking Dead Recently and think it definitely deserves a spot on this list.

 

[PET3R]

Surprise Everyone. I did not disappear, just took different approach in finding the best pinball. Instead of analysing, I have been playing the same tables over the longer period of time to see what will happen. After 4 months this is where I am at the moment.

First of all, these are the tables I have started with and I haven't played any other since December last year. TAF, AFM, RBION, SS, MM, TZ, TOM, MB, STTNG, CC, CV, WW

WW - am I still playing: NO

As discussed before, whole scoring is down to 3x Jackpot and this is what killed the table for me. Shooting the arrows was really what I liked about this table, but I enjoy this in STTNG in a much better way.

CV - am I still playing: NO

The whole table is only about hitting the ringmaster as everything else gets sorted by it self. Therefore it becomes very quickly a very repetitive exercise of a making a single shot, over and over again.

CC - am I still playing: NO

The biggest problem I have with this is the mine. If I had the nerves, mine would be the only shot I would be doing whole day as this starts your multiball very easily and at the same time advances your bonus which plays a big role in this game. It is a very easy and safe shot as is the catch of the ball. I also don't like the timed wizard mode.

TOM - am I still playing: Occasionally to have fun, but not for score.

This table has really grown on me and I understand why some players find it to be their favourite table. The layout and shots are absolutely fantastic as well as the rules and the table is super fun. It is one of these tables like AFM and MM with a repetitive shot (trunk) but unlike the other two here the shot does not feel repetitive at all. Yes there are some problems with the significant importance of the bonus and the left shot, but the main reason why I stopped playing it for score are the random extra ball awards in the suitcase. If you are lucky you can get more than 2-3 extra balls - "lit extra ball" or virtual pinball. I find the wizard mode really unsatisfying here.

SS - am I still playing: less and less and I will stop.

I don't know what it is that is always making me return to this table, but I am playing it less and less and I am sure I will stop very soon, as the whole scoring comes down to wizard mode. You can be playing this table for half an hour but if you don't reach wizard, your score will be very small. The formula of this table seems to be this: Get to the wizard as quickly as you can and try to make most of it as that is where the millions are. Rinse and repeat.

MB - am I still playing: all the time

This has became my number 2 table. The biggest problem I always had with any table is the moment that comes straight after you beat the wizard mode. After beating wizard in MM you don't know what to do as the next wizard is very far and you are certain you are not going to make it all the way there with your 1 ball. You feel like you accomplished the game and then play to get some extra small points that does not matter much anymore. Because of the nature of MB you feel that you can reach the wizard at any time and once you are good at it, it is quite common to reach wizard more than once in the same game. You even get a bonus if you do it on a single ball.
And if you can't make it to wizard you can still make it to Monster Bash where you can still rack up a very good score. Stacking up multiple modes is great as well as finishing them during the Monster Bash. I am against video modes and there is not one here. However I absolutely hate Phantom flip as it only drain my balls. Un-timed multiball wizard mode is one of my favourite.

RBION - am I still playing: Yes

There were times I would play this a lot, then times I would play less. I love beating the modes against the clock and collecting the letters. I also like the modes very much and their variety - 2 balls, spinner, varitarget, stones. I wish MB had little bigger variety in modes. I do not like 2x playfield, 2 sets of bumpers and the fact there is nothing to shoot on the left side of the table. Not sure I like the complex rules and the temple. Wish it was more straightforward like MB. I guess that LOTR could replace this table as it is based on the same principle of beating the modes, however I prefer the reward of adding all the mode scores together once you have visited all the continents.
I rank this table at no.3 at the moment but one day it could disappear.

MM - am I still playing: yes but will stop

This is the only table were I have reached the wizard mode but have not beaten it yet. This is the reason I am still playing it. For me a big fan of the modes, this table falls very flat. There is no time limit, you just have to do certain number of shots in any order (approx 50 for ramps and another 50 for castles). What's worse, beating the castle is the way to high score. When I complete the 6 castles my score is around 80-90 million compared to 20-30 if I concentrate on ramps. Therefore bashing the castle becomes quickly very repetitive. Whole game seems to be split into 2 parts. You are either hitting the ramps or the castle. It all comes down to counting how many shots I have left to reach the wizard mode. No pressure, no accuracy needed, as long as you don't drain you are fine. MM Wizard is the other type of a wizard mode I like, similar to spider-man with various levels to beat.

AFM - am I still playing: yes but not regularly

This table seems to have more variety to MM and it is much easier to reach multiple wizard modes. 5 way combo can be really annoying here as many times you start a mode or multiball that will interrupt your combo and you have to start over again. I am still not the biggest fan of a SJ achievement and I absolutely dislike Wizard mode where you need to reach 2.5 billion. Shooting saucer can sometimes feel repetitive and I do mind more and more the linear progress of the game and linear scoring I have described before.

STTNG - am I still playing: All the time

This has become my no.1 table at the moment. This table is all about accuracy and once you learn your shots this table is a blast. Every single game is very different and you never know what to expect. The score really reflects how good was your game and not how long have you lasted. It is a great experience to see how you are getting better at shots and how your average score is going up from game to game. At first I sucked at this table and I hardly scored 1-2 billion points. Later it went up to 3-4 billion and now I can almost every day have a score of 6 billion. It's really great to see how I am improving in this table and looking forward to see higher and higher scores.
I think it is really great that this table is widebody and I absolutely don't mind the outlanes as I only drain when I miss. This makes games much quicker and it never starts to drag. Just like in MB, reaching multiple wizards is not uncommon here and so you never feel like you have nothing to do. This is my favourite wizard which is dependant on how good you played the modes. I love the idea you have only 1 attempt at each mode and therefore you have to do your best to collect the chips, stones etc...
Yes I don't like video modes but fortunately this one is not very bad and it can be quickly over. LLRRLLLL Being able to start modes and specially Final Frontier from the plunger is epic idea and I really love it. There is always something to do or work towards - modes, multiball, warp, side modes. Layout of the table is great with the use of the 3rd flipper. To me there is nothing more satisfying in pinball than successfully shooting lit arrow.

TAF - am I still playing: just about to stop.

Becasue of 3 tables MB, RBION, STTNG where you race against the clock to beat the mode, there is nothing in TAF I feel I have to achieve. In TAF I am thinking more about what shot not to make, not to drain the ball, rather than what shot do I need to do. As long as I have the ball I will be fine. I will get that points somewhere else anyway. So there is no pressure. Just collecting the rooms. They do stack up so I will get the score anyway no matter what shots I do.

TZ - am I still playing: not really

Very similiar to TAF. I think I would prefer this table much more if the modes did not stack up. Table feels very claustrophobic and that is the reason why I always end up playing TAF even though TZ rules seems to be better thought out. I dislike timed wizard mode. Scoring is very good though as there can be very big swings, depending on how well you play. I guess that Indiana Jones could take over this table.

 

[vikingerik]

CV - am I still playing: NO

The whole table is only about hitting the ringmaster as everything else gets sorted by it self. Therefore it becomes very quickly a very repetitive exercise of a making a single shot, over and over again.

I think there's more to it than that. You need to shoot the ramp for multiballs, and you have to make the Juggler locks and several other shots for the wizard mode. It doesn't all get sorted by itself.

TOM - am I still playing: Occasionally to have fun, but not for score.

This table has really grown on me and I understand why some players find it to be their favourite table. The layout and shots are absolutely fantastic as well as the rules and the table is super fun. It is one of these tables like AFM and MM with a repetitive shot (trunk) but unlike the other two here the shot does not feel repetitive at all. Yes there are some problems with the significant importance of the bonus and the left shot, but the main reason why I stopped playing it for score are the random extra ball awards in the suitcase. If you are lucky you can get more than 2-3 extra balls - "lit extra ball" or virtual pinball. I find the wizard mode really unsatisfying here.

Random EBs wouldn't have been my major complaint about Theatre. AFM has them too. But anyway, what do you do with the illusion modes? Do you shoot for them? Pretty much everybody agrees that it's best to just wait and time them out, they're not worth enough. You say you love shooting lit arrows... but you'll score more by shooting for bonus X or multiball instead.

MB - am I still playing: all the time

This has became my number 2 table. ... Because of the nature of MB you feel that you can reach the wizard at any time

Told ya so. Like I was saying, MB's structure is so great because the path to the wizard mode is entirely up to the player. And not just one path and one wizard mode, but two.

STTNG - am I still playing: All the time

Have you tried playing this for only Borg Multiball and not for the missions? Once you get good at that, Borg MB scores more than the missions and Final Frontier do.

TAF - am I still playing: just about to stop.

Just collecting the rooms. They do stack up so I will get the score anyway no matter what shots I do.

I was saying that too. You don't need much of any strategy in TAF, the scoring is very flat, pretty much everything you do scores points about the same way.