Zen & Stern collaboration teaser?

[shutyertrap]

To add one more element to this, if I recall correctly, haven't the sale figures for the WMS packs actually exceeded Zen's expectations? And we aren't even into licensed stuff yet.

So it seems like they knew what they were doing when they made the decision to double dip into doing both digital originals and recreations.

Yes, that’s what Mel said. The fact they are even considering applying the new Williams physics to Zen originals shows they recognize the potential of customers that hadn’t purchased before. And believe me, there’s no doubt they know what tables you’ve bought compared to what you haven’t.

 

[trash80]

To add one more element to this, if I recall correctly, haven't the sale figures for the WMS packs actually exceeded Zen's expectations? And we aren't even into licensed stuff yet.

So it seems like they knew what they were doing when they made the decision to double dip into doing both digital originals and recreations.

This is my understanding. I'd argue that even the initial "censorship" hullabaloo may have given a boost as well. It is amazing what can happen when accidentally cause a viral social response these days. You know what has been said about no such thing as bad publicity, and in many cases, I tend to agree.

 

[trash80]

Yes, that’s what Mel said. The fact they are even considering applying the new Williams physics to Zen originals shows they recognize the potential of customers that hadn’t purchased before. And believe me, there’s no doubt they know what tables you’ve bought compared to what you haven’t.

They also know which tables and in which physics format are being played and for how long and how often.

 

[msilcommand]

Yes, that’s what Mel said. The fact they are even considering applying the new Williams physics to Zen originals shows they recognize the potential of customers that hadn’t purchased before. And believe me, there’s no doubt they know what tables you’ve bought compared to what you haven’t.

I hope so. There's definitely going to be a bump when you come out with something very new and fresh though. I wouldn't rely on that much. I have faith that if they make licensed originals coincide with their emulation releases, they will continue to thrive.

 

[wilbers]

I bet a lot of thought went into picking Fish Tales as the free table - get lots of people into having "just one more game", then after a bit have them see this Medieval Madness thing looks interesting, and then they are on the slippery slope to buying all the new releases. Subtle nudges on the quick play and news parts of the opening FX3 screen rather than a hey you buy this on a big notice, all really rather clever.

SYT : Did you ask Mel Kirk in one of your interviews how they picked Fish Tales as the free table?

 

[wilbers]

Just had a very low score on first game of Jurassic Park table (how did I miss playing that one for so long, bought it ages ago), and was position 28,241 which gives a big clue to how many they have sold. In fact if anyone is in a similar position, play to get as low a score as possible on a table and will be an even more accurate number.

 

[shutyertrap]

I bet a lot of thought went into picking Fish Tales as the free table - get lots of people into having "just one more game", then after a bit have them see this Medieval Madness thing looks interesting, and then they are on the slippery slope to buying all the new releases. Subtle nudges on the quick play and news parts of the opening FX3 screen rather than a hey you buy this on a big notice, all really rather clever.

SYT : Did you ask Mel Kirk in one of your interviews how they picked Fish Tales as the free table?

Fish Tales is Mel’s favorite machine, so I imagine that’s why it was chosen.

 

[msilcommand]

Just had a very low score on first game of Jurassic Park table (how did I miss playing that one for so long, bought it ages ago), and was position 28,241 which gives a big clue to how many they have sold. In fact if anyone is in a similar position, play to get as low a score as possible on a table and will be an even more accurate number.

It's a fun table. The pinball madness one too.

 

[GAH1068]

Fish tales is far from my favorite table but looks wise in FX3 it is by far in my opinion. It might be just the colors the table uses but it is so realistic and just pops.

 

[warh0g]

For all the discussion about Zen spreading thin, for the sake of argument we can just assume that they know what they are doing?
I mean, they have been in business for 16 years now (if Wikipedia is correct). Hopefully this means that they have some business savvy people over there, since I suspect it is not blind luck that has been the guiding star the last 15+ years.

My wallet is ready for more pinball!

 

[msilcommand]

For all the discussion about Zen spreading thin, for the sake of argument we can just assume that they know what they are doing?
I mean, they have been in business for 16 years now (if Wikipedia is correct). Hopefully this means that they have some business savvy people over there, since I suspect it is not blind luck that has been the guiding star the last 15+ years.

My wallet is ready for more pinball!

I think the speculation is not whether or not ZEN knows what they are doing as a business, but whether or not they are so pumped to finally get the license deals away from Farsight's monopoly, that they may be running super high and naked and screaming with excitement? It's obvious they know how to run a digital pinball game, we just don't want them to come down from the high, still naked and screaming with excitement, and realize they are standing in a schoolyard.

 

[Gorgar]

Telltale went out of business after many years because after all of their success, they ramped up their production schedule. Since the gameplay didn’t change much from game to game, consumers began to lose interest, and they declared bankruptcy. The same thing can possibly happen to Zen if they aren’t careful.

 

[shutyertrap]

Zen is not only making pinball. They just launched the RPG game Operencia on Xbox and PC. They’ve got Infinity Golf, Disco Dodgeball, Castle Storm, and more on various platforms. Pinball happens to be what they’ve been making for the longest time, but Zen is not a one trick pony and that point really needs to get through to certain people.

It’s like worrying Nabisco is expanding their Oreo line too much and not realizing all the other food products they make. Oreo just is their #1 product, thus deserving of extra attention.

 

[msilcommand]

This is really nothing more than believers vs skeptics. Neither side has any real clue what the future holds, but all sides hope it will be good for digital pinball.

The hard truth is that gaming development is volatile. Exponentially more so if you're not running one of the top 20 games in the mass market.

 

[steven120566]

FarSight never wanted to create their own tables, full stop.


Point being, a Zen original, even using a license, I suspect is simply never going to sell as well as a recreation table. Stern is cranking out new pinball around 4 times a year. All these young millenials are playing those, and that inspires them to look seek more. Most places that have these machines have at least one older title. Person plays one of those, down the rabbit hole they go. Think about music that you weren't alive for on the radio, but one band leads you back a little, making you wonder where that sound came from. Soon you listen to a flashback weekend, or tune into a station that plays older music, and you inherently feel the difference, the nostalgia speaks even when you don't have any connection. It's amazing how we as humans can suss out what is manufactured nostalgia from true. A modern band can try for an 80's sound, but they'll never fool anyone into thinking they actually were from then. Same goes for pinball, why these old designers are still being hired today. The simple act of playing pinball is rife with nostalgia, even to a new player.

Fascinating discussion. I'm 52, played some pinball whenever I could from 1980 through like 1984. Enjoyed it but got into video games in the years that followed. Got an xbox 360 many years ago and stumbled upon FX 2. That game turned me back into a "pinball" fan big time before I even realized there was a Farsight studios. And the fact that THEY were recreating real machines made the whole digital pinball scene even more amazng for me. Then the "nostalgia" hit me in addition to the fun of pinball that I rediscovered with FX2. So what I am saying is the Zen originals are my fave, even up to Son of Zues. But TPA was also a great time and I would switch back and forth alot.

You guys have basically laid out a slew of reasons recreations will likely be the bulk of where FX3 and Zen studios are going. But I will always play all of those Zen originals. And what keeps me playing FX 3 is that Zen themselves included all of those in FX3. Basically we have so many tables we can play. And I am now playing on Switch, and when you scroll through the tournaments, if you want to have an Earth Defense, El Dorado, or Wild West Rampage tournament, you pretty much have to make it yourself. You'll get some players with it, but not too many are creating tourneys on those. And while I look at my friends on the leaderboards, while I am still trying to climb up the boards on those old tables, all two dozen of my switch freinds are stagnant. I also am buying all the awesome Williams recreations, but with so many tables and so little time, I am not likely going to keep going back to a Champions Pub like I do with Rome.

But I also realize I am in the vast minority here And the discussion of where Zen will be putting most of their resources into, you guys are spot on. Any additional tables they release will keep people playing the game and buying the new ones whether they are originals or recreations, but I think that the fan base is most fired up about real tables at this point in time. Not knowing much about the technical side of making real tables digital, this question may be dumb. But why woluldn't Zen make solid states Gorgar and Firepower, Whirlwind, Taxi, Pinbot etc? I can see where EMs just might not cut it any more but there were great Midway/Williams tables before there were DMDs.

 

[shutyertrap]

Not knowing much about the technical side of making real tables digital, this question may be dumb. But why woluldn't Zen make solid states Gorgar and Firepower, Whirlwind, Taxi, Pinbot etc? I can see where EMs just might not cut it any more but there were great Midway/Williams tables before there were DMDs.

Zen will get to alphanumeric tables soon according to Mel. Once you start getting to regular SS numeric machines, the ethos of Zen becomes distinctly difficult to add on. Their base customer prior to the Williams addition liked the game because of all the fantasy elements, but those become really obtrusive on machines that were simply lacking in toys, and the simple game play is a hard pill to swallow when used to highly detailed rule sets. That's not to say Zen won't do a table like Firepower at some point, but they are first going to have to let their base audience get used to that era. That is why they started with DMD, as it was clearly what Zen originals were modeled after. Alphanumerics have rules that often got close to what the DMD era was known for, and hopefully the Zen audience will grow to love those. If they do, it's not a stretch to say they just might enjoy certain SS numeric machines. But yeah, EMs? Those are a hard sell to even pinball enthusiasts. When I go to the Banning Museum of Pinball with over 550 machines to play, there'll be crowds all day surrounding the rows of WMS and Stern machines, while the EM section is a proverbial ghost town.

 

[HighFive]

Zen will get to alphanumeric tables soon according to Mel. Once you start getting to regular SS numeric machines, the ethos of Zen becomes distinctly difficult to add on. Their base customer prior to the Williams addition liked the game because of all the fantasy elements, but those become really obtrusive on machines that were simply lacking in toys, and the simple game play is a hard pill to swallow when used to highly detailed rule sets. That's not to say Zen won't do a table like Firepower at some point, but they are first going to have to let their base audience get used to that era. That is why they started with DMD, as it was clearly what Zen originals were modeled after. Alphanumerics have rules that often got close to what the DMD era was known for, and hopefully the Zen audience will grow to love those. If they do, it's not a stretch to say they just might enjoy certain SS numeric machines. But yeah, EMs? Those are a hard sell to even pinball enthusiasts. When I go to the Banning Museum of Pinball with over 550 machines to play, there'll be crowds all day surrounding the rows of WMS and Stern machines, while the EM section is a proverbial ghost town.

I hipe at some point they do some EM, like a simple 3 pack one day. I often go back to TPA play the ones they make, its just more ´relaxing’ pinball for me, simple to understand. For sure the crowd is not into these old pinball, but i think there is still a lot enjoying them. Sometime i just wish that Farsight do some more with their Gottlieb license.

 

[Citizen]

Makes me wonder if the best chance for getting EMs would actually be a separate Williams EM app. I'm not normally a fan of separate apps, but if that's what it'd take to get us some EMs, I'd be happy to see them dip their toes into that at some point.

As a separate app targeted at the fans who want EMs it'd free them from having to worry about the expectations of the classic Zen fanbase, or what to do for enhanced graphics, power-ups, etc. 1 set of physics and 2 setups/difficulty levels (Arcade/Normal and Tournament/Hard) for a total of 2 modes is all it'd need. I guess they could still include the challenge modes too just for fun, even without the power-up system.

 

[Gusbomb]

A separate Bally/Williams EM app sounds wonderful. Similar to launching Zaccaria, B/W EM could drop you into this very different pinball world where everything is a little calmer and dreamier. Zaccaria (seems to have intentionally) adopted a slightly lysergic color palette and soundscape that is like leaving the hot tub and jumping in a cool swimming pool after playing Zen. I remember small town carnivals in the 1980s would set up a tent with 6 or 8 pinball machines sinking slightly into the almost-bare dirt, scary guys I didn't know glaring at me as I played Haunted House. It was awesome, and Zaccaria gives me the feeling that I am at that firemen's carnival again. I love Zen, but the vibe is a self-assured Virtual World in which I don't really participate aside from pinball culture. As others have mentioned, TPA c/should have done this with Gottlieb EMs long ago and meager pathetic few of us would have been all over it.

 

[trash80]

For those of us wanting EM tables, there are free alternatives that will usually be more faithful (and more fun) than any commercial digital rendition that TPA has, or Zen could ever release. Regardless, if you do not have a full pincab setup with DOF, B2S and all the hardware chimes, motors, tilt bob and the like, you will realize pretty quick that most EM tables are just not that fun when you can't interact with them as they were intended.