BREAKING NEWS: New Difficulty Mode w/ Separate Leaderboards Coming!

[kinggo]

but that just isn't true. Everything has momentum. In order to hit the ball with some object by nudging you have to slide the table under the ball even little. That same little happens on open playfield.

 

[JPelter]

but that just isn't true. Everything has momentum. In order to hit the ball with some object by nudging you have to slide the table under the ball even little. That same little happens on open playfield.

That's completely irrelevant since it's not a permanent change to ball trajectory. The whole point of this conversation was why TPA nudging is unrealistic because you can curve balls out on the open playfield. You can't do that on a real machine.

Let me set up an example to illustrate this.

You have a ball coming straight down from the bank of ball targets on big shot, and it's going to hit the outside of the slingshot triangle. This will always send the ball straight down the outlane. If you nudge a real machine while the ball is out on the open playfield, the playfield will shift slightly under the ball, and it will shift back. The ball trajectory stays constant. You have to time the nudge so that the shift happens exactly as the ball is about to hit the top of the slingshot triangle. That way the triangle will move just a little bit to intercept the ball at a different angle, possibly bouncing it upwards or inside towards the flippers depending on how hard you shove.

This isn't what happens in TPA. In TPA you can make that nudge at any point while the ball is falling and the actual ball trajectory changes.

 

[Heretic]

its all balls to me, nerds!

what we have here is failure to commicate

 

[shutyertrap]

All I know is in my experience with real machines, what JPelter is talking about is absolutely true. It is most notable on Bally widebodies or EMs where the ball is rolling slowly as it is. You can see a SDTM coming from a mile away, and there is zero you can do about it without slam tilting the machine. Simply put, a ball in the middle of an open playfield absolutely does not behave the same on a real table as in TPA when nudging. Real table = infinitesimal shift in trajectory, while TPA = shift of an inch or two.

 

[invitro]

If the ball is out on the playfield there is nothing to transfer that momentum onto the ball, and the only way to move the ball relative to the playfield is to slide the entire table out from under the ball. This does not happen in regular nudging, only when forcefully sliding the entire machine to the side.

This is just not true; kinggo is correct.

From above you said: "The flipper is in this instance the object that exerts the sideways force of the moving cabinet onto the ball, not the playfield itself." No, of course not: the ball would be several inches above the flipper at the time the left/right nudge was made. Then the ball falls to hit the flipper, then the table moves back in the reverse direction of the nudge. This is what happens in a "slap save" and gentler versions (I didn't use a slap save much at all when I played at a high level, but I did the gentler version pretty much constantly, as there is usually an optimum place you want a down-falling pinball to hit on the flipper).

 

[invitro]

All I know is in my experience with real machines, what JPelter is talking about is absolutely true. It is most notable on Bally widebodies or EMs where the ball is rolling slowly as it is. You can see a SDTM coming from a mile away, and there is zero you can do about it without slam tilting the machine.

This may or may not be true for old Ballys/EM's: I didn't play them enough to remember. But it is absolutely false for at least WMS DMD's, and that is important, as I don't think this conversation was restricted to old machines at some point? Top players literally almost never lose the ball down the middle. (I wasn't quite at that level, but I was close.)

Simply put, a ball in the middle of an open playfield absolutely does not behave the same on a real table as in TPA when nudging. Real table = infinitesimal shift in trajectory, while TPA = shift of an inch or two.

This is true.

The disconnect is that JPelter's claims are just too strong. You most certainly can alter a ball's trajectory on an open playfield with gentle nudging (with any non-zero left-right move, in fact). You just can't do it to the extreme degree you can in TPA. (And you can't stop a ball that's coming down the inlane at the flipper with a nudge, either, on most WMS machines & flipper configs anyway, etc. etc..)

 

[invitro]

Here is a thought experiment that may bring some of the disagreement to the surface. Take a playfield-sized piece of plywood, and raise one end to make a typical pinball six-degree angle. Take a pinball, and dip it in paint, as we are going to want to view its trajectory. Get someone else to put the ball at the top center of the plywood and let it go, and start rolling down the plywood.

While the ball is about in the center of the plywood, move the bottom of the plywood about an inch to the right, in about 0.1 seconds (I'm trying to estimate an typical actual nudge here). Then move it back to the left an inch, also in 0.1 seconds. The amount of time taken should be enough so that the ball has not rolled off the plywood after both moves have been completed.

The questions then are:
- Is the painted ball path a straight line, or is it curved? If it's curved, we have altered the ball's trajectory without knocking it into a physical object.
- Would the moves have generated a slam tilt? A warning? I don't think so... if you think they would have, then halve the distance moved and try again.

 

[relaxation]

Thickness of paint coming off the ball might be a factor.

I would assume someone(s) with a streaming setup and a real machine do this with the glass off starting from the same area to see how real tables take repeated small nudges versus large nudges and can take a look at the footage, preferably side by side.

question comes down to, does the repeated small nudges friction over time make a difference?


perhaps someone tape a toilet-paper/rolltowel tube to their playfield facing the drain and see if they can make the ball leaving from the tube reach a flipper?

 

[JPelter]

This is just not true; kinggo is correct.

From above you said: "The flipper is in this instance the object that exerts the sideways force of the moving cabinet onto the ball, not the playfield itself." No, of course not: the ball would be several inches above the flipper at the time the left/right nudge was made. Then the ball falls to hit the flipper, then the table moves back in the reverse direction of the nudge. This is what happens in a "slap save" and gentler versions (I didn't use a slap save much at all when I played at a high level, but I did the gentler version pretty much constantly, as there is usually an optimum place you want a down-falling pinball to hit on the flipper).

I'm going to stay off the painted ball argument but I disagree with this entire thing. The nudging done when slap saving is done as the ball is about to hit the flipper, not before it. Yes it temporarily shifts the ball closer to the flipper, but this is the same point as with any other playfield object, it first shifts the ball a tiny bit up the flipper, and then transfers momentum from the machine swinging through the flipper into the ball. If you do this so far in advance the machine is not moving as it reaches the flippers, your nudge did absolutely nothing, because the ball will have returned to the original position and maintains the original trajectory.

I'm going to concede one point though. And incredibly worn or dirty playfield might actually make it possible to make slight adjustments just with regular nudges because of added friction, but the adjustments probably won't be very controllable.

 

[invitro]

The nudging done when slap saving is done as the ball is about to hit the flipper, not before it.

I don't understand. What is the difference between "about to hit" and "before"?

 

[invitro]

Thickness of paint coming off the ball might be a factor.

Oh my goodness. Imagine it's an infinitely tiny amount of paint, then.

 

[kinggo]

That's completely irrelevant since it's not a permanent change to ball trajectory. The whole point of this conversation was why TPA nudging is unrealistic because you can curve balls out on the open playfield. You can't do that on a real machine.

Yes, you can. But of course, not in a way how TPA does that.

You have a ball coming straight down from the bank of ball targets on big shot, and it's going to hit the outside of the slingshot triangle. This will always send the ball straight down the outlane. If you nudge a real machine while the ball is out on the open playfield, the playfield will shift slightly under the ball, and it will shift back. The ball trajectory stays constant. You have to time the nudge so that the shift happens exactly as the ball is about to hit the top of the slingshot triangle. That way the triangle will move just a little bit to intercept the ball at a different angle, possibly bouncing it upwards or inside towards the flippers depending on how hard you shove.

It doesn't. At least not related to playfield, maybe to the ground under the machine. But if you shift playfield left a bit and then right what happens to the ball at that time?

 

[Crawley]

Wow. You guys are completely wrong!

In Episode 15 Captain Kirks safe combination was 3215 not 3216. Sheesh.

 

[Naildriver74]

its all balls to me, nerds!

what we have here is failure to commicate

Look what the cat dragged in. Good to see your still around.

 

[soundwave106]

If you do this so far in advance the machine is not moving as it reaches the flippers, your nudge did absolutely nothing, because the ball will have returned to the original position and maintains the original trajectory.

I don't think "absolutely nothing" is really correct (a nudge could probably add a small amount of spin), but it is correct to say that slight nudges won't dramatically change the route, and it is best to nudge using an object. Most of the nudging you do on RL pins is forward.

TPA style nudging is possible but only on rare machines which have no tilt sensor and are easy to slide around. These pins actually exist, but I think most would view this as an incorrect setup.

 

[Tarek Oberdieck]

I can imagine the TPA nudge style becomes more realistic if Farsight simulate the weight from the table as heavy as real...

 

[JPelter]

Yes, you can. But of course, not in a way how TPA does that.


It doesn't. At least not related to playfield, maybe to the ground under the machine. But if you shift playfield left a bit and then right what happens to the ball at that time?

Ok bad choice of words on my part. The point I was trying to make is that after the machine stops shaking the net result to the position and trajectory of the ball has been very close to zero. The ball does shift during the nudge, and then shifts back. This is exactly why you nudge as the ball is about to hit a surface instead of when it is out on the playfield, and was the entire point of why I commented on this in the first place. In TPA there are no timing requirements to the nudging. This argument is getting really tired at this point though so I guess we just won't agree.

 

[switch3flip]

Geez, another pseudo-meta theoretical discussion about real pinball.

Maybe in a closed lab environment in vacuum it cant be done, but in the real world I do it all the time. It's not as easy as in TPA but not very hard. Just go try it yourself.
The way I usually do it is a series of quick small sideways nudges, like shaking. The ball will move slightly to the side on each shake, outcome will be like one big side nudge in TPA. I don't exactly think about it, I just do it and intuitively I will move the ball either to the left or to the right by choice, not by random. Sometimes I'll give it one larger side nudge slide,pretty much just like in TPA. Sometimes I'll get a warning, sometimes not. Yes I'm talking about nudging to make the ball change it's path without the ball touching anything other than only the playfield underneath, to make the ball not drain SDTM, or just get a better position on flipper.The shaking style is not as fast as the TPA nudge so it's hard on fast balls, but just any slower rolling trajectory can be manipulated. The earlier I start the better, obviously.
I think I find it easier on new or newly polished playfields, but I'm not entirely sure, haven't thought about it. I just played a lot of a fresh KISS yesterday and did it a lot and it was fresh in my memory.

I can't say exactly how it works, but I know that when sideways nudging, it's not like the entire table and legs are perfectly sliding from side to side like it was standing on ice or something, there will be a slight sideways leaning, maybe that affects the path, maybe the dynamics and forces on the ball vary from nudge and back and ball will roll differently, maybe ball spin makes ball lose contact for fractions of seconds. Yeah maybe there's paint coming of, who knows. It just works.

 

[Tarek Oberdieck]

Geez, another pseudo-meta theoretical discussion about real pinball

True words.

 

[sneakynotsneaky]

Geez, another pseudo-meta theoretical discussion about real pinball.

Maybe in a closed lab environment in vacuum it cant be done, but in the real world I do it all the time. It's not as easy as in TPA but not very hard. Just go try it yourself.
The way I usually do it is a series of quick small sideways nudges, like shaking. The ball will move slightly to the side on each shake, outcome will be like one big side nudge in TPA. I don't exactly think about it, I just do it and intuitively I will move the ball either to the left or to the right by choice, not by random. Sometimes I'll give it one larger side nudge slide,pretty much just like in TPA. Sometimes I'll get a warning, sometimes not. Yes I'm talking about nudging to make the ball change it's path without the ball touching anything other than only the playfield underneath, to make the ball not drain SDTM, or just get a better position on flipper.The shaking style is not as fast as the TPA nudge so it's hard on fast balls, but just any slower rolling trajectory can be manipulated. The earlier I start the better, obviously.
I think I find it easier on new or newly polished playfields, but I'm not entirely sure, haven't thought about it. I just played a lot of a fresh KISS yesterday and did it a lot and it was fresh in my memory.

I can't say exactly how it works, but I know that when sideways nudging, it's not like the entire table and legs are perfectly sliding from side to side like it was standing on ice or something, there will be a slight sideways leaning, maybe that affects the path, maybe the dynamics and forces on the ball vary from nudge and back and ball will roll differently, maybe ball spin makes ball lose contact for fractions of seconds. Yeah maybe there's paint coming of, who knows. It just works.

Agree completely with all of this.