Drain Monsters

[EldarOfSuburbia]

No one noticed I said 'Bacardi' maneuver

I did, but I was politely reading the rest of the thread first.

 

[Rich Lehmann]

Well of course Central Park, that whole game is a giant drain. But after that 1812 is pretty bad. The flippers feel to short and that little center peg too small. White Water is a bad one for me too, it's like the ball gets caught for a bonus but then is shot out straight at the out lane. Gee, thanks for the bonus!

 

[Fungi]

Heheh. He said "Bacardi".

 

[Zorgwon]

Well of course Central Park, that whole game is a giant drain. But after that 1812 is pretty bad. The flippers feel to short and that little center peg too small.

Kinda slippy. Dead bouncing is lethal.

 

[Zaphod77]

heh. ST:TNG is very manageable with practice.

fish tales, now that one is HARD in TPA.

And prepare to be mocked by Dracula when you drain just as you light castle lock. the laugh samples are different for using the ramp versus using the standups of death, they KNEW you'd drain off of them a lot,and that the correct way to light the castle lock is by looping the ramp.

 

[kinggo]

you don't have to wait for castle lock. I lost 4 balls in a row after plunging, bump bump bump and to the left outlane.

 

[Kratos3]

If you've played pinball IRL, you should understand that most tables drain way more often than they do on TPA.

IMO, drain monster = realism, for better or worse.

 

[kinggo]

yes. But on the real thing you have A LOT more control over nudging, every slap counts for something, good or bad, but it does something. For us who play TPA only on touch screen devices drain monster is drain monster and there's not much you can do. Shake nudge causes unintentional TILTs, especially in some video modes. And it's not the same on all devices. Not to mention that upward shake nudge is impossible. Touch zones for nudge in portrait are not good enough. Add to that small screen. And IMO, flippers are slow.

 

[TomL]

My biggest gripe with a touch screen interface is lack of tactile feedback to let you know if you're pressing on the flipper buttons. Too often, my fingertips will migrate away during busy play from the spot on the smooth screen thay I need to press. I wind up pressing on the wrong spot and I miss my flip. Argh.

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

My biggest gripe with a touch screen interface is lack of tactile feedback to let you know if you're pressing on the flipper buttons. Too often, my fingertips will migrate away during busy play from the spot on the smooth screen thay I need to press. I wind up pressing on the wrong spot and I miss my flip. Argh.

Forgetting to flip is my favorite way to drain. Not flipping too late because the ball flies down the inlane too darn fast. Not misjudging where the ball is going to bounce on the flipper and seeing it go dead and roll away instead of bouncing across to the opposite flipper. Just plain forgetting to flip. Extra bonus points if it was from a trap.

 

[9u1d0]

Get ready to add several Dracula shots to this list.

Yep, add both Dracula and Phantom of the Opera to the drain monsters list...

 

[Fungi]

I've got a question for anyone that has plenty of real life experience. Due to my frustration with the "tuning" of certain TPA tables, I'm now questioning the ball paths. What I expect out of these simulations is for the ball to react like real tables. Flying every which way, randomly reacting to however the ball hits surfaces. What I'm finding lately is the ball following preprogrammed paths that take them directly to the exits. It's as if Bobby has heard the pleas of everyone saying the tables are too easy, and therefore his solution seems to be is to artificially make the ball go directly out once it hits certain points on the tables.

How is it that hitting the top of a slingshot drives the ball either directly into the neighboring outlane or creates a nice lofty arch that goes directly into the opposite outlane? How is it that a ball hitting a wall, no matter how hard or soft, has just the right amount of bounce to make it drop right between the flippers? I'm seeing these two reactions an inordinate amount in BSD and POTO.

Am I the only one seeing this, or do the real tables do this?

 

[switch3flip]

[MENTION=16]Fungi[/MENTION]
It's no coincidence, if you haven't noticed, slingshots are angled at the outlanes. That's more or less their job; to send balls to outlanes. The counteraction for both TPA and real machines is mainly up nudging just when ball hits slingshot, to get ball out of there and higher up on playfield. Then of course nudging early to prevent ball hitting the slingshots at deadly angles. I can't say I find TPA any different to regular tables. Stupid slingshots and their stupid ability to send balls to oulanes.

When you're talking about more than usual drains between the flippers in BSD, that's no coincidence either, as that table, along with Fish Tales, has lightning flippers, and they are shorter than normal so the gap between the flippers is bigger than usual.

And no, there is no script that kicks in at certain scores, just your nerves. BSD is famous for being a drain monster.

 

[Fungi]

Well, I'm not talking about the meat of the slingshots. I'm talking about the tops, where its a hard rubber circle capable of bouncing a hard sphere in any direction depending on how hard it's hit and from what direction it's hit from. Yet, the ball either goes directly out, or bounces the other way with a gentle arch that just happens to find the other outlane. And I'm not talking about a script that kicks in at certain scores. I'm just talking about scripts in general. When it comes to ball trajectories, they shouldn't exist.

I really started suspecting false ball movements when I saw the ball go forever in the roulette wheel in HRC. Then, I personally watched my ball gather the max points in the tea cup in Diner with the weakest shot imaginable. Whatever is moving the ball about, it doesn't seem to be natural random physics.


Also, let's say the ball movements aren't scripted, then the tuning should be more random so as not to make me suspect it is.

 

[switch3flip]

Oh, I misunderstood, when you said points on table, I thought you meant when you hit a certain score. There are most definitely preprogrammed paths that the ball will take, off flippers up ramps and so on, that is true. True randomization is impossible to program and there are lots of situations in tpa where at least some more artificial randomization could improve realism, like kickouts and so on. So you are right, there are more or less scripted repeated ball trajectories happening all the time. However, that doesn't mean they intentionally are meant to go to an outlane, some just do and those are the ones you notice. They are easily predicted when you learn the repeated pattern and most of the time easily avoided when you learn how to counteract them (nudging at certain moments for instance) or avoid shooting certain shots from certain angles. Some of these predictable behaviours can also be exploited and can totally ruin a recreation of a table.

 

[EnergyOne]

Well, if you make it too much easier than the real table (eg Twilight Zone) people also complain.

I'm new here and new to Pinball, and I can only afford season 1 at the moment, but the one table I've played that jumped out at me as the most difficult in that season is, in fact, Twilight Zone.

 

[JPelter]

Well, I'm not talking about the meat of the slingshots. I'm talking about the tops, where its a hard rubber circle capable of bouncing a hard sphere in any direction depending on how hard it's hit and from what direction it's hit from. Yet, the ball either goes directly out, or bounces the other way with a gentle arch that just happens to find the other outlane. And I'm not talking about a script that kicks in at certain scores. I'm just talking about scripts in general. When it comes to ball trajectories, they shouldn't exist.

I really started suspecting false ball movements when I saw the ball go forever in the roulette wheel in HRC. Then, I personally watched my ball gather the max points in the tea cup in Diner with the weakest shot imaginable. Whatever is moving the ball about, it doesn't seem to be natural random physics.


Also, let's say the ball movements aren't scripted, then the tuning should be more random so as not to make me suspect it is.

The tops of slingshots lead to outlanes because that's what happens when you hit them. You need to nudge to either hit the inside edge instead or not hit the slingshot at all. That's not anything different from real tables. What is a bit suspect is the lack of any kind of bounce in the outlane/inlane area. Most tables recently have gotten a lot better about it, but a lot of the old tables railroad to the outlane if the ball goes in that area, instead of bouncing/being able to nudge them. There's definitely some physics weirdness there.

Also I'm going to just note here that while I think the outlane/inlane areas could be more realistic I really really hope they don't make any tables in the game easier than they already are. None of the tables in the game are harder than in real life and most are way way easier. You can go look at Zen if you want to see how tedious things can get if it's literally impossible to drain no matter how hard you want to.

 

[Zorgwon]

.. but the one table I've played that jumped out at me as the most difficult in that season is, in fact, Twilight Zone.

Litz is pretty easy to get. You get those panels here and there and then the question mark. The gumball machine seems easified. My weak shots always go up there. Drains from the bumpers are normal and you have to avoid the skill shot.

Have you got BFTK? ruled the universe?

 

[soundwave106]

I'm new here and new to Pinball, and I can only afford season 1 at the moment, but the one table I've played that jumped out at me as the most difficult in that season is, in fact, Twilight Zone.

For those used to the real machine, however, it is a lot easier than real life. Basic best strategy for Twilight Zone on both TPA and real life is left ramp / right ramp / piano. But the Pinball Arcade TZ has incredibly strong flippers and a predictable slot kickout, so it's much easier to get in a rhythm... and much easier to get several LITZs in a game. Most I've gotten on a real life machine is one.

Most TPA machines are tuned "easier" -- I have ruled the universe on Attack From Mars twice several games, and even on ST:TNG (which is tuned a bit more difficult than TZ or AFM) I've gotten a couple Final Frontiers on several games. These are tough goals to do just once on the real machine, and in both cases in real life I have also only managed one at most.

(I put "easier" in quotes, because I think part of the tuning they do has to do with balancing platforms like mobile where nudging is more difficult, with console or PC games where analog nudging is much easier.)

 

[switch3flip]

When you learn the rhythm of the slot kickout on TZ it's even easier to shoot back in there than shooting the piano. Kickout, let bounce from right to left flipper then shoot from left right after second bounce on left flipper. Handy for tourneys. Left ramp, right ramp, piano, slots.