Flipper lag theory

[shutyertrap]

Its also worth noting that I also have a copy of PHoF:WC and at 1080p the flipper action in that is still crisper than on TPA at 720p for the same PS3/TV/Controller setup. That's why I'm still hopeful that their code optimizations could still provide major improvements on the PS3 version.

Except PHoF didn't have the dynamic lighting, which is what is causing the lag. You gotta do one final testing parameter though, and that is with a CRT tv. Since there is zero processing done with those, you should be able to measure if the 720p version has the same responsiveness as on a flat panel tv. My tv is CRT, does 1080i but no 720p, and I honestly do not notice lag, even though now I know it is there. Bobby never specifically mentioned 720. Here is exactly what he said during the interview...

BK: It went from being a 2 frame lag from HDR lighting to 1 frame lag that’s still there for 1080, but it’s there because we’re doing this post processing thing. In order to have the lighting technology that we do and run at 60fps, we need an extra frame to process everything after the controller input.

SYT: So it has nothing to do with the controller itself lagging?

BK: I’m actually not 100% sure. I play with a wired controller myself, and I’ve heard that there are some controllers that have a 1 frame lag. So if they do, it’s nothing that we can do about it. We have seen, especially with all the different ways the PS3 connects to TVs nowadays, unless you have your TV in the correct mode, there is a delay of like a half a second, and it is awful. People who are seeing that, hopefully they can adjust their TV.

 

[ROTTEN]

BK: I’m actually not 100% sure. I play with a wired controller myself, and I’ve heard that there are some controllers that have a 1 frame lag. So if they do, it’s nothing that we can do about it. We have seen, especially with all the different ways the PS3 connects to TVs nowadays, unless you have your TV in the correct mode, there is a delay of like a half a second, and it is awful. People who are seeing that, hopefully they can adjust their TV.

Funny, these "laggy controllers" don't give me any issues with any other games. Maybe at least give us the option to turn certain features off that may cause the 1 frame delay in stead of having to switch to 720p or even worse 420p to get rid (reduce) of the ridiculous lag ...... or better yet ..... just fix it.

 

[ER777]

Except PHoF didn't have the dynamic lighting, which is what is causing the lag. You gotta do one final testing parameter though, and that is with a CRT tv. Since there is zero processing done with those, you should be able to measure if the 720p version has the same responsiveness as on a flat panel tv.

Yeah, I know but I'm still hopeful that they find a way to get us to that quality of flipper action in TPA also, even if only at 720p.

I don't think I have any working CRT TVs left but I think I do have an old CRT PC Monitor. I just don't think I'd have any way to hook the PS3 up to it without buying some sort of converter.

 

[Jim O'Brien]

Yeah, I know but I'm still hopeful that they find a way to get us to that quality of flipper action in TPA also, even if only at 720p.

I don't think I have any working CRT TVs left but I think I do have an old CRT PC Monitor. I just don't think I'd have any way to hook the PS3 up to it without buying some sort of converter.

I've tested on our old CRT TV and even the menu to select tables moves faster and the flippers react lightning fast. Maybe you know someone that will let you borrow one or bring your PS3 to their place. Once you see it for yourself it will amaze you.

 

[superballs]

Seems if there is to be zero lag, you will need to do away with dynamic lighting.

Sounds like a lose-lose to Farsight either way.

Regarding a single frame delay...This should (SHOULD) be impercievable. Given the way signals in the eye are processed though that might not be the case. Either way there is no easy solution that can just be slapped into place. Especially since this, while pretty widespread, isn't a universal problem and seems to be better or worse depending on setups, and perception.

 

[Biff]

Like I said before, many developers release their games in 720p to enhance performance and to reduce lag. Lots of tripple A titles and all Zen Pinballs use 720p. Your screen automatically switches to the lower resolution when you fire these games up. 720p doesn't mean that you graphics have to look like sh*t. Such games are designed for the lower resolution and use optimized graphics.

TPA is a 1080p title. I don't know if it's possible for FS to make it look good in 720p. Like Bobby said to Chris, for some changes they would have to release an entire new game (like zen did with zen2).

 

[ER777]

I've tested on our old CRT TV and even the menu to select tables moves faster and the flippers react lightning fast. Maybe you know someone that will let you borrow one or bring your PS3 to their place. Once you see it for yourself it will amaze you.

I actually was able to find an old CRT TV that was at least sort of working (picture pulsates and and it eventually cuts out, been meaning to recycle it for years), but it was good enough to test this for a few minutes at least. As you said, the flipper action is flawless on a CRT, perfectly responsive just it is in PHoF on all my TVs. Of course it didn't look so great in SD. Just to make sure its not the connection, I also used the composite Av cables with the Sony LED/LCD TV and the flipper action was just like it was using HDMI in 720p - decent but not perfect. So the CRT TV was definitely the winner.

So let's take stock of this. The game plays flawlessly on a CRT TV but not an LCD TV even using the same cables and display resolution. So clearly the TV plays a role in this (even in game mode with all enhancement features turned off). On the other hand the same TVs can play other pinball games like PHoF perfectly, without adding any extra delay. So clearly the game plays a role in it as well.

There must be something in the way that TPA outputs the lighting on the PS3 version that is difficult for an LCD to display, and introduces the lag. So I think its like Superballs said, to make it play flawlessly on LCD TVs Farsight would have to change the way they do the lighting.

 

[Mark W**a]

Pretty sure Farsight is on the record saying the reason for the delay is related to the lighting engine. They said they are still working on a fix I believe.

 

[ROTTEN]

to make it play flawlessly on LCD TVs Farsight would have to change the way they do the lighting.

If this is what they have to do then they should just do it. We paid for this game and it should work properly. I can deal with bugs and all that BS, but when the controls have been broken for this long it's just inexcusable.

 

[ScotchYeti]

Maybe we should add this to a PS3 FAQ. We have been discussing the input lag in and out and the conclusion has always been the same: it's the tv.

Unfortunately there is nothing Farsight can do with a reasonable amount of effort so this is something we have to live with. Options are, as already pointed out, to

1) lower the resolution to 720p (works for most but not all)
2) replace the TV
3) get an XBOX once all tables are available

 

[SKILL_SHOT]

Didnt they say the found a fix thats better than it is now but not 100% fixed and will be in the next update?

 

[shutyertrap]

I don't remember hearing that. I do know the flipper pass through issue should be fixed in the coming update.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Maybe when they add more lighting options, they could also add an option to disable some of the lighting effects compketely for those who experience lag.

 

[smbhax]

Maybe we should add this to a PS3 FAQ. We have been discussing the input lag in and out and the conclusion has always been the same: it's the tv.

Unfortunately there is nothing Farsight can do with a reasonable amount of effort so this is something we have to live with. Options are, as already pointed out, to

1) lower the resolution to 720p (works for most but not all)
2) replace the TV
3) get an XBOX once all tables are available

The lowering to 720p thing has to do with a specific frame delay induced by the game itself within the PS3 hardware, not the TV. That is to allow for post-input lighting calculations at 1080p, as confirmed in SYT's interview. That was the one definite source of "lag," although apparently only at 1080p after recent updates.

The answer in the interview also mentions a "second and a half" delay that they've seen occur on certain TVs--if you're getting that, you'd definitely know it as the game would be effectively unplayable. That would be a separate, second type of "lag," and that one would be due to a misconfigured TV.

Then there's the certain lack of "crispness" when comparing the responsiveness of the flippers in TPA vs, say, the same tables in FarSight's earlier "Pinball Hall of Fame: The Williams Collection" game on PS3. That would be a third type of lag.

I'm not sure of people have intended to blame this third type of lag on TVs, but I think it's far more likely to be something between, again, the software and the game console--some physics issue, like the ball-through-the-flipper thing. It was, I think, a FarSight person who mentioned something on this board a month or two ago indicating that the physics calculations don't update as quickly as the visible screen display--physics being updated at 30 fps while the rendering runs at 60 fps, say; that's something pretty commonly done in games when you need to save processing power for other calculations--which they have obviously needed to do to pull off their lighting stuff, for instance. If that's what this remaining "lack of crispness" lag is, then it's something they could, theoretically, improve with further optimization of the game software.

We can also hope that it *was* related to whatever got fixed for the through-the-flipper bug a more recent FarSight post said has been fixed; out-of-sync rendering and physics calculations *can* cause stuff to go through things, as I found first-hand in other games years ago, when I was a game tester. Although, the way Mike R, phrased it, it sounds like this was a fix for a very specific glitch, and not an overall optimization. I guess we'll know whenever the through-the-flipper fix makes its way to a PSN update--hopefully in the next month or two.

~~~~

Hm, also, if a delay was in your TV, and you had separate sound and video outs from your PS3, then I would think that not only the flippers but also the sound would be out of sync with the screen--actions would occur onscreen *after* their corresponding sound effect. That would be interesting. I have separate sound and video outs on mine (sound via component, video via HDMI), and haven't noticed them being out of sync with each other at all.

 

[shutyertrap]

The through-the-flipper bug was actually cause of this...well heavily paraphrased and probably full of errors on my part, but you'll get the idea!

When a a flipper is flipped up, it temporarily loses its solidity, otherwise the ball would stick to it due to collision physics. That part worked like a champ, as it's what lets us play the game. However, all flippers on the table would go through this change at the same moment! So you'd flip both and notice the ball going through the tip of the opposite. That video we all saw posted showing the ball going through? Yeah, that helped FS identify the problem. We'll all know soon enough, yeah?

 

[Mike Reitmeyer]

Our physics update at a minimum of 60 times per second. Depending on ball speed it can be more. When in proximity of the flipper or going really fast, they are updated 6 times per frame, or 360 times per second.

The flipper control though is only updated 60 times per second, as we only get input from a controller once per frame.

 

[smbhax]

Ooh, thanks for the clarifications, guys! I'm officially out of ideas for the slightly fudgier flipper action in TPA (at 720p) vs PHoF then.

Like, one TPA example is sometimes you'll flip at a ball that's coming down the table to the tip of the flipper, it'll seem to miss somehow and the ball continues moving, but then a split-second later the ball, now past the flippers, reacts to a flipper hit and is miraculously saved from certain death! Basically I feel a bit of clumsiness with the tips of the flippers when I'm trying to dink or juggle a ball around--the collision distance or timing is sometimes noticeably off a bit in those situations, whereas it always feels right on the money in PHoF. (Edit: Hm you know maybe that stuff *is* symptomatic of the through-the-flipper bug as SYT just described it!)

Mike, would those extra physics updates you mentioned be what causes two balls heading toward each other at high speed to rebound maybe an "inch" or so *before* they seem to touch in TPA? Someone else here pointed that phenomenon out a while back, can't find the original post at the moment though. (Update: ah it's here, complete with example video. Thanks, Biff!)

 

[Biff]

can't find the original post at the moment

http://digitalpinballfans.com/showthread.php/2315-Multiball-Glitch-on-every-Table-and-Black-Hole-Glitch

This one?

 

[ER777]

Well, I am intrigued by what the update that contains this physics fix will bring now. I guess I'll hold off on buying a CRT TV or an XBOX360 for at least that long lol.

Our physics update at a minimum of 60 times per second. Depending on ball speed it can be more. When in proximity of the flipper or going really fast, they are updated 6 times per frame, or 360 times per second.

The flipper control though is only updated 60 times per second, as we only get input from a controller once per frame.

At the risk of making myself sound foolish - is it at all possible that the extra instances of physics updates per frame could lead to some sort of duplication/layering of lighting effects (like reflections on the ball) within the frame?

 

[smbhax]

http://digitalpinballfans.com/showthread.php/2315-Multiball-Glitch-on-every-Table-and-Black-Hole-Glitch

This one?

That's the one, thanks! : )