Flipper lag theory

[brakel]

Well, I am intrigued by what the update that contains this physics fix will bring now. I guess I'll hold off on buying a CRT TV or an XBOX360 for at least that long lol.



At the risk of making myself sound foolish - is it at all possible that the extra instances of physics updates per frame could lead to some sort of duplication/layering of lighting effects (like reflections on the ball) within the frame?

I don't think so. When he's saying that the physics updates up to 360 times per second that means that the CPU is doing the math for where the ball is located in space that often, but the actual visual picture that we see is only updated 60 times per second. When the ball is going fast and hitting things close together its speed and direction could change more often than the location is visually updated. You want all these calculations going on so that the aggregate of those calculations is reflected in the ball's position when the visual does get updated.

 

[warh0g]

Hi, I just regisrered on this forum and wanted to share my findings.
Running TPA on my PS3 through my Yamaha RX-V565 receiver caused noticeable input lag, caused by the picture being delayed when processed by the HDMI in to HDMI out. Guestimated delay is around 50-75 ms (lipsync value set to 75ms).
So I connected the PS3 straight to the TV HDMI and ofc running in game mode, this has a really good effect on response but not completely satisfactory.
Then i realized something, TPA does not trigger on the top of L1/R1 button (they are pressure sensitive) but rather halfway down. You can recreate this by slowly pushing the button down until the flipper activates, then release it a fraction and push down over and over. The flipper response is immidiate in this situation asfar as I can tell. If I'm not totally confused, changing the flipper triggers to register the input as 1 or 0 instead of a Z value in TPA might resolve some issues? Excellent comparison is the xbox360 L/R buttons which go click when you press them (they are 1 or 0 state)
What do you guys think?

 

[ROTTEN]

What do you guys think?

I think it sucks that we have input lag and the only way to get rid of it is to make the game look like it's being played on the Atari 2600. This is a pinball game ..... we need working flippers. It's like playing a golf game without golf clubs.

 

[brakel]

Hi, I just regisrered on this forum and wanted to share my findings.
Running TPA on my PS3 through my Yamaha RX-V565 receiver caused noticeable input lag, caused by the picture being delayed when processed by the HDMI in to HDMI out. Guestimated delay is around 50-75 ms (lipsync value set to 75ms).
So I connected the PS3 straight to the TV HDMI and ofc running in game mode, this has a really good effect on response but not completely satisfactory.
Then i realized something, TPA does not trigger on the top of L1/R1 button (they are pressure sensitive) but rather halfway down. You can recreate this by slowly pushing the button down until the flipper activates, then release it a fraction and push down over and over. The flipper response is immidiate in this situation asfar as I can tell. If I'm not totally confused, changing the flipper triggers to register the input as 1 or 0 instead of a Z value in TPA might resolve some issues? Excellent comparison is the xbox360 L/R buttons which go click when you press them (they are 1 or 0 state)
What do you guys think?

That is a feature of the two stage flipper. On a table that has an upper flipper or two you can trap a ball on the lower flipper while still working the upper flipper independently. Many people don't practice this technique and have suggested that FarSight have this feature be optional by turning it on or off in options. However, this is not the cause for the current state of flipper lag which has already been discussed in many threads in this forum.

 

[Mike Reitmeyer]

Ooh, thanks for the clarifications, guys! I'm officially out of ideas for the slightly fudgier flipper action in TPA (at 720p) vs PHoF then.

Like, one TPA example is sometimes you'll flip at a ball that's coming down the table to the tip of the flipper, it'll seem to miss somehow and the ball continues moving, but then a split-second later the ball, now past the flippers, reacts to a flipper hit and is miraculously saved from certain death! Basically I feel a bit of clumsiness with the tips of the flippers when I'm trying to dink or juggle a ball around--the collision distance or timing is sometimes noticeably off a bit in those situations, whereas it always feels right on the money in PHoF. (Edit: Hm you know maybe that stuff *is* symptomatic of the through-the-flipper bug as SYT just described it!)

Mike, would those extra physics updates you mentioned be what causes two balls heading toward each other at high speed to rebound maybe an "inch" or so *before* they seem to touch in TPA? Someone else here pointed that phenomenon out a while back, can't find the original post at the moment though. (Update: ah it's here, complete with example video. Thanks, Biff!)

I'm not sure the cause of the 2 balls colliding issue, recently I added some debugging that lets me see the in between physics updates. So the 6 updates between a frame, I can now rewind back through and see what happened. It'll make fixing these issues easier.

I don't think so. When he's saying that the physics updates up to 360 times per second that means that the CPU is doing the math for where the ball is located in space that often, but the actual visual picture that we see is only updated 60 times per second. When the ball is going fast and hitting things close together its speed and direction could change more often than the location is visually updated. You want all these calculations going on so that the aggregate of those calculations is reflected in the ball's position when the visual does get updated.

That's correct. Rendering is done every 60th of a second, physics calculations may be done in between renders, so it only renders once per frame after all the calculations are done.

 

[Daniel Osborne]

Zen is a 720p game, tpa is 1080p, so maybe that's why zen doesn't have as much lag.?

 

[Biff]

Zen is a 720p game, tpa is 1080p, so maybe that's why zen doesn't have as much lag.?

Could be a reason but you cannot say this for sure.
Two different games, different code / engine, made by different people with different skills (on two different continents ).

 

[warh0g]

It is a shame, the Xbox 360 version plays much better than the PS3 :S

 

[Jeff Strong]

It is a shame, the Xbox 360 version plays much better than the PS3 :S

Just depends on your setup. They both play identical on my TV with no noticeable lag. Actually the PS3 version plays better since more table bugs have been fixed.

 

[SKILL_SHOT]

Just tried 720p again and besides the menu being faster when I played the game itself it plays faster, I was playing TOTAN I never got those bad loop balls that would come back to drop and the ball itself moves differently. Either way i play about the same, I just wish the balls would stop going through the flippers.

 

[ER777]

Just depends on your setup. They both play identical on my TV with no noticeable lag. Actually the PS3 version plays better since more table bugs have been fixed.

What kind of TV are you using?

 

[Jeff Strong]

What kind of TV are you using?

It's a Sony Bravia 46" LCD 1080p 60hz, circa early 2009. It plays exactly the same on my PC monitor as well, with no lag on either.

 

[SKILL_SHOT]

I have the same one! KDL-46S5100 does yours dim during dark scenes? I looked everywhere to disable it no luck.

 

[warh0g]

Just depends on your setup. They both play identical on my TV with no noticeable lag. Actually the PS3 version plays better since more table bugs have been fixed.

Yeah the fixed issues are good, but concerning the flipper lag I got my 360 connected to my "old" tv (Samsung 40") at my parents home and my PS3 is running on my Sony Bravia KDL-46EX710 46". Thinking of taking the PS3 over to their house to check it out again "with new eyes". Think it might be the tv that is causing the "last" bit of lag :S

 

[ER777]

It's a Sony Bravia 46" LCD 1080p 60hz, circa early 2009. It plays exactly the same on my PC monitor as well, with no lag on either.

Interesting - I would have guessed it was something besides an LCD. Two thoughts come to mind, first maybe that TV is just old enough that it doesn't have a bunch of extra processing going on. Second is that its 60hz, both TVs that I have been using are 120hz sets. I should get my old 720p 60hz LCD out of the bedroom and try hooking that up to the PS3.

 

[Jeff Strong]

I have the same one! KDL-46S5100 does yours dim during dark scenes? I looked everywhere to disable it no luck.

Yeah, there is a way to disable that. I'll check the menu later and let you know. Some sort of Gamma correction.

Interesting - I would have guessed it was something besides an LCD. Two thoughts come to mind, first maybe that TV is just old enough that it doesn't have a bunch of extra processing going on. Second is that its 60hz, both TVs that I have been using are 120hz sets. I should get my old 720p 60hz LCD out of the bedroom and try hooking that up to the PS3.

I think you might be right about both of those. My TV doesnt have very many bells and whistles, and those that it does have, I have turned off (Gamma correction, Cinemotion, etc.). The only thing I have enabled is Game Mode. Plus the 60hz vs. 120hz may also have something to do with it.

 

[SKILL_SHOT]

720p fixes the lag and also makes the overall game faster, I prefer 1080p as Ive become accustomed to the lag. I have an easier time shooting wide lanes off the tips with 720p but is less forgivable when shots miss. If you like to FLOW play 1080p if you like to CONTROL do 720p or just change up your game!

 

[Jeff Strong]

I have the same one! KDL-46S5100 does yours dim during dark scenes? I looked everywhere to disable it no luck.

Try this, man:

Go to Menu > Settings > Picture...then "Picture Adjustments"
Then scroll all the way down to "Advanced Settings"
From there you'll want to turn OFF 'Black Corrector", and also set "Gamma" to OFF as well.
Honestly, I recommend turning everything OFF on this screen because it's all extra processing stuff that you don't need and can cause lag in any game, and everything looks better this way anyhow.

One other thing I suggest for this TV (or any similar Sony) is to disable CineMotion...or should we call it ChoppyMotion?. Trust me, everything will look more natural without it, especially movies, but games too (and less processing is always better if there's a chance of lag) . It's under Menu > Settings > Picture > CineMotion. From there you can toggle it for each input. I'd turn it OFF for all.

And of course, make sure you have Game Mode enabled for your PS3’s input and you should be golden with zero lag.

Hope this helps

 

[Urbanshenkie]

Just depends on your setup. They both play identical on my TV with no noticeable lag. Actually the PS3 version plays better since more table bugs have been fixed.

And he is so full of lies , the ps3 version is horrible lagging and the xbox version is not lagging at all..tested on sony bravia kdl40hx750 2012 tv

the ps3 version is unplayable...so not identical to the lag free xbox version

I have al tables for slim xbox and slim ps3..

it cant be identical lag wise so how is that so ???

 

[Palmer Eldritch]

flipper lag is an urban legend at this point