Flipper lag theory

[Daniel Osborne]

Interesting stuff guys. My biggest issue was the thumbstick position, it made nudging for me almost impossible whilst using the triggers. It looks lovely, I can't wait to see the xbox one updated, you guys are lucky in the fact that you've not been in limbo for months!

 

[brakel]

I think the preference of one controller over another has as much to do with the ratio of a person's length of index finger compared to the length of their thumb. Throw in another ratio of those distances compared to the distance between the base of the index finger and the base of the thumb (the "web" if you will).

Another preference is offset thumb sticks or mirrored thumb sticks. I've owned a PS3 since launch but I had a 360 for two years also. I just could not get used to the offset thumb sticks on the 360 controller.

The only thing that I don't like about the PS3 controllers are the R2/L2 triggers. I buy those trigger caps that companies make to put over them. They give the triggers a bit of a curve so it doesn't feel like my fingers are going to slip off. That was an easy fix. No easy fix for the offset thumb sticks so I sold my 360 last year or maybe the year before.

 

[Red_Krampon]

I haven't noticed any lag on my PS3 TV combo, but that may explain why I am so bad, LULZ.

 

[Alex Atkin UK]

I haven't played pinball games on anything but my PS Vita since I got my new TV which had huge lag issues, so I wasn't sure about the Pinball Arcade lag problems.

However I decided to have a go on Zen Pinball 2 today out of curiosity and much to my delight, no lag problems at all and I was even playing it in 3D. Obviously one of the firmware updates to my TV did as promised and fixed the lag problem.

So I then immediately went on Pinball Arcade and was completely stunned by just how bad the problem is, its completely unplayable. The lag is indeed HUGE on this game on PS3 in 1080p, slightly lower in 720p but I still feel its too high even then.
I'm not sure it will ever be Zen Pinball low due to the emulation layer, but its completely useless right now.

I have complained that the Vita version looks too flat and the playfield needs darkening so it doesn't blend into the ball and the higher parts of the table so much. However if it is indeed the lighting engine causing these issues, I can live without the lighting on the Vita version thanks. Graphics are only important if improving them doesn't completely destroy the gameplay.

 

[Red_Krampon]

Well I must be lucky then. I'm playing it in 1080P and I have no lag. I didn't notice lag before but figured I would check after reading this thread, and I'm lag free. Or if there is lag, it is imperceptible to me. Unfortunately that means my bad scores are my own. My TV is the 4000 series Samsung (I believe it's 4000). I bought it about 5 years ago.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Well I must be lucky then. I'm playing it in 1080P and I have no lag. I didn't notice lag before but figured I would check after reading this thread, and I'm lag free. Or if there is lag, it is imperceptible to me. Unfortunately that means my bad scores are my own. My TV is the 4000 series Samsung (I believe it's 4000). I bought it about 5 years ago.

Yeah, I think those of us with older 1080p TVs are the lucky ones. Less bells and whistles = less or even no lag.

 

[ROTTEN]

Solution for now = 720p + TV (game mode optional)

PS Upscaler = off
PS Smoothing = off
1080P 24 HZ output (HDMI) = off
Cross color reduction filter = off
RGB Full range (HDMI) = limited
y pb/cb pr/cr super-white (HDMI) = off
Deep color output (HDMI) = off

Results = snappy flipper response.

Try this and let me know your results

It's a shame I have to do this to have a working game, but it works! ..... looks like poop.

 

[Crush3d_Turtle]

I recently picked up a Playstation 3D Display (so far I am very happy with it) and finally got around to trying TPA for the PS3 on it. Compared to playing the PS3 on my LCD television, it certainly does feel much more responsive but there is still a discernible delay when activating the flippers. I can play the Xbox 360 version of the game on any display and the flippers feel very responsive and snappy all of the time; the same thing goes for playing on the PS Vita. I would rather be playing on the PS3 so that I can take full advantage of the cross system DLC with the Vita. To make sure it wasn't just me, I let my friend play on the PS3 with no prior information about the lag and it only took them a few minutes to come to the conclusion that the flippers feel weird. Maybe sometime I will try setting it down to 720p and seeing if that fixes any of the problems, but I really don't see that as a viable solution.

 

[warh0g]

Solution for now = 720p + TV (game mode optional)

PS Upscaler = off
PS Smoothing = off
1080P 24 HZ output (HDMI) = off
Cross color reduction filter = off
RGB Full range (HDMI) = limited
y pb/cb pr/cr super-white (HDMI) = off
Deep color output (HDMI) = off

Results = snappy flipper response.

Try this and let me know your results

It's a shame I have to do this to have a working game, but it works! ..... looks like poop.

Initially I would say it feels to be very responsive, I need to test a bit more but I broke my previous (modest) record on Creature from the Black Lagoon with around 300 million points (976 million new high score). I will play some more tomorrow when it is not 4 in the morning

 

[smbhax]

Solution for now = 720p + TV (game mode optional)

PS Upscaler = off
PS Smoothing = off
1080P 24 HZ output (HDMI) = off
Cross color reduction filter = off
RGB Full range (HDMI) = limited
y pb/cb pr/cr super-white (HDMI) = off
Deep color output (HDMI) = off

Results = snappy flipper response.

Try this and let me know your results

It's a shame I have to do this to have a working game, but it works! ..... looks like poop.

Switching from 1080 to 720 does seem to remove the 1-frame post-processing input delay, as has already been discussed. Those other XMB display settings sound like voodoo more than anything. The PS Upscaler and PS Smoother only apply to PS1 and PS2 games, for instance; and a while back I switched my RGB Full Range (HDMI) setting to Full, and it made the game look a whole lot better, with no change to lag.

 

[ROTTEN]

Switching from 1080 to 720 does seem to remove the 1-frame post-processing input delay, as has already been discussed. Those other XMB display settings sound like voodoo more than anything. The PS Upscaler and PS Smoother only apply to PS1 and PS2 games, for instance; and a while back I switched my RGB Full Range (HDMI) setting to Full, and it made the game look a whole lot better, with no change to lag.

Yes, the upscaler and smoothing are most likely a placebo. However, the full range and deep color options can and do affect many system/TV combos. I've tested this many times and I find with the settings above I get the least amount of lag.

 

[ER777]

Yes, the upscaler and smoothing are most likely a placebo. However, the full range and deep color options can and do affect many system/TV combos. I've tested this many times and I find with the settings above I get the least amount of lag.

Experimenting with some of those settings was a good idea. I tried out all of the settings you listed above on my setup, there was a slight improvement but it was still nowhere near as crisp as playing on the CRT TV. It could make more of a difference on other TVs though so its definitely worth people trying. Even marginal improvements are still improvements so very worthwhile to try.

I did turn the PS Upscaler and PS Smoothing back on since like was said before they should have no bearing on TPA, and I do occasionally play a PS1 or PS2 game on this PS3.

y pb/cb pr/cr super-white (HDMI) = off
Deep color output (HDMI) = off

I left these two set to off since they did seem to help a little bit. These two and the RGB range would be the only ones I would think could be the possible difference makers with HDMI. I didn't see any noticeable change in picture quality setting these to off so I figured why not leave them off.

...a while back I switched my RGB Full Range (HDMI) setting to Full, and it made the game look a whole lot better, with no change to lag.

I agree with this. I also had to turn the RGB output range back to full, everything looked washed out with it set to limited. I didn't really see any noticeable difference in performance from toggling that one setting. If there was a performance difference it was very slight at most and not worth the loss in visual quality in my opinion.

1080P 24 HZ output (HDMI) = off

Last note - This setting should also not affect TPA since it will never output at 24Hz.
(For anyone that is curious this setting is there to prevent 3:2 pulldown issues on TVs running at 60Hz trying to display the 24Hz output. Since 24 doesn't divide evenly into 60 the TV has to alternate between displaying each frame 2x or 3x and it can sometimes make motion look choppy.)

 

[brakel]

I'm not sure about the other settings but super white would not cause any more processing. Its just specific info being sent to your TV if it supports it. Just for research purposes I tried all of these and tried to shoot the outer loops in Tales and Magic. I did see some improvement a few months ago when I started using game mode on my TV. I didn't see any improvement by changing from 1080p to 720p either.

 

[Pinballfan69]

I didn't realize how much of issue this really was. For some reason this current update for the PS3 version is much more improved. I was skeptical of this lag and I though it was just shoddy play. I'm now much more accurate in my shots. Those shots requiring the ball to trickle down to the tip of the flipper I can actually hit. The Sinkhole in MB was a bare now I can hit that shot with a backhanded right flipper shot that I couldn't do consistently in the previous version. Maybe it was more the tweak in physics?

 

[chaosWyrM]

They've confirmed a single frame of lag which is 16ms.

To most people this will be either imperceivable or nearly so.

For reference. At approx 6 feet when you're having a conversation with someone 6 feet away from you, the latency between seeing their lips move and hearing the sounds is 5ms, and is imperceivable. The brain just puts it together.

Now, we're talking about a lag that's 3 times as long, howerver, when monitoring sound while recording, it's widely considered that up to 25ms is acceptable.

Now, I don't have a PS3 and even if i did, i only have a 720p television. I have to think that something like pinball would make that kind of lag more noticeable when the ball is travelling quickly but if it's moving slowly, there would be almost no perception of the lag.

If it's "extremely noticable" then there's something more than the single frame lighting lag.

you might be able to monitor sound at that latency, but anyone who has ever spent any time recording music will tell you 16ms latency is PLENTY noticeable.

25ms is unworkable

10ms is pushing it.

under 5 is acceptable

0 is preferable.

good luck hitting those notes on time at 16ms.

and good luck hitting that ramp shot at 16ms.

 

[atari2600]

just for the record i started noticing serious lag on the PS3 when i upgraded my 4 year old LG TV to a Sony Bravia 55HX850 about 3 months ago.

 

[Alex Atkin UK]

I am in the same situation with both a PS3 and a 360 hooked up to the same tv with both inputs having the same game mode settings. The 360 version looks and runs far better than the PS3 with no flipper lag whatsoever. When I play the PS3 version, all of the tables are incredibly dark and I experience some pretty bad flipper lag. I really wish the PS3 version was better since I would like to take advantage of the Vita/PS3 cross play instead of having to buy the DLC more than once.

The darkness of the PS3 tables is intentional and some of us like it as it makes the tables look more realistic due to the contrast between lit up areas and the rest of the playfield. It adds a lot of depth perception too. In comparison the PS Vita version everything tends to blend into each other making it much harder to keep up with what is going on. I admit, I haven't really tried out the Xbox 360 version to compare though.

As for flipper lag, I'm absolutely certain everyone has it, but you will only notice if your TV itself adds enough lag for it to become a problem.

I tested my PS3 on my TV (an LG known to be laggy) and my monitor simultaneously with a HDMI splitter (so the signal going into each cannot differ or one or the other wouldn't sync).

On the TV 1080p is unplayably bad, 720p just about playable, but on my monitor both are absolutely fine and if I hadn't seen it on my TV I would swear the game is fine, which is basically what the people saying "mine doesn't have lag" are experiencing.

When testing like this I also tried Zen Pinball and its immediately apparent how much more responsive that game is in comparison. This makes it clear that the problem lies with Pinball Arcade and as I recall someone said it was caused by the post-processing added for the advanced lighting when they darkened the tables to make them look more realistically lit.

While I really love the darkened tables, its absolutely no good if its made the game too laggy to play.

[UPDATE]
Whoever said its much improved since the last game update, you are totally right. I'm not sure its as quick as Zen, but its totally playable on my TV now. (I hope this WAS a game fix as my TVs lag does seem to change from day to day, I think it gets lower once its warmed up)

 

[Alex Atkin UK]

I just compared the Xbox 360 and current PS3 version on my monitor, the lag seemed the same now, very minimal.

I definitely prefer the darker look of the PS3 version too, it makes the lights pop like they would on a real table in a softly lit room. Although I have to admit some of the tables seem a bit too dark such as Theatre of Magic, whereas Twilight Zone seems to hit a good balance and look VERY realistic.

Now if they are able to add 3D support as well without re-introducing the lag, things could look stunning. Although it remains to be seen if the 3D will make up for it having to be 720p in 3D (or 1080p half SBS, although I would prefer half TTB as that would match my passive TVs resolution).

 

[chaosWyrM]

This makes it clear that the problem lies with Pinball Arcade and as I recall someone said it was caused by the post-processing added for the advanced lighting when they darkened the tables to make them look more realistically lit.

well yes as we have all been saying it is most definitely a problem with pinball arcade (farsight has admitted it), but the lag has been around since day one...before they added the advanced lighting, so thats not the issue.

i will admit, the game plays better now on most tables, but not all...and its "better" not fixed.

 

[Daniel Osborne]

just for the record i started noticing serious lag on the PS3 when i upgraded my 4 year old LG TV to a Sony Bravia 55HX850 about 3 months ago.

Have you set 'scene select' to game? Makes a massive difference.