Season 3 pack removed from all platforms!

[Patty]

But what about the money you´ve paid for the tables of the season. before the season pack is released. Double payment?

 

[superballs]

But what about the money you´ve paid for the tables of the season. before the season pack is released. Double payment?

they aren't going to Charge people again whom already purchased the season packs just that if you haven't you won't be able to in the future.

 

[Bowflex]

But what about the money you´ve paid for the tables of the season. before the season pack is released. Double payment?

It's the classic "Early adopter" penalty. I hate nothing more than when you buy a dvd or album and later on down the road it is re-released with bonus footage/outtakes or one or two extra songs. Same thing with greatest hits albums that have one extra song. In this case, you can pay as you go so it's not like bonus stuff will come later but if you were to buy the season at the end but already bought one or two tables, you get double dipped. So you either pay more up front and enjoy from day 1 or wait until everything is already out and you can buy it all at a fairly nice discount.

 

[superballs]

It's the classic "Early adopter" penalty. I hate nothing more than when you buy a dvd or album and later on down the road it is re-released with bonus footage/outtakes or one or two extra songs. Same thing with greatest hits albums that have one extra song. In this case, you can pay as you go so it's not like bonus stuff will come later but if you were to buy the season at the end but already bought one or two tables, you get double dipped. So you either pay more up front and enjoy from day 1 or wait until everything is already out and you can buy it all at a fairly nice discount.

seasons will become largely irrelevant to anyone who Keeps current in TPA now, but will be good for anyone late both party to be able to catch up with everyone else.

 

[Bowflex]

seasons will become largely irrelevant to anyone who Keeps current in TPA now, but will be good for anyone late both party to be able to catch up with everyone else.

Yeah, I figure by the time I buy a PS4 or perhaps get Steam if I ever get a new laptop, I will be hitting the season packs. By that point they should have 1-4 available. Although I do have free tables automatically because of the kickstarters... Just to complicate things more for me.

 

[superballs]

Yeah, I figure by the time I buy a PS4 or perhaps get Steam if I ever get a new laptop, I will be hitting the season packs. By that point they should have 1-4 available. Although I do have free tables automatically because of the kickstarters... Just to complicate things more for me.

A single table doesn't really take away from the value of seasons 1 and 2, The single table seasons only a bit really. I had T2 from the KS and S 2 was still a bargain.

 

[Bowflex]

A single table doesn't really take away from the value of seasons 1 and 2, The single table seasons only a bit really. I had T2 from the KS and S 2 was still a bargain.

Yeah, I was thinking more about S1 because I have both TZ and ST pro versions due to me. They are the same price as any other pack and I'm not sure what the season is worth. Probably still cheaper for the Season pack though. They are marked down by pretty big margins.

 

[superballs]

Yeah, I was thinking more about S1 because I have both TZ and ST pro versions due to me. They are the same price as any other pack and I'm not sure what the season is worth. Probably still cheaper for the Season pack though. They are marked down by pretty big margins.

I think season 1 was marked down 10 $ more than season 2

 

[spoonman]

So why not just remove the season pack option from all iOS devices and leave the rest alone?
I can hold off on buying it for my iPod Touch, but I really liked paying for a full season on my PS3 (and now PS4) then having them show up for download.

I'm not sure exactly why everyone gets penalized because of Apple's ruling on this.
Is Farsight worried Apple fans will get jealous of other platforms or are they just using this as an excuse to do away with it.

Maybe they figure they will make more money without season discounts, but I don't think that's the case. Some of the people who I've turned on to TPA are casual players. They've purchased season packs in the past, but without an option to buy the entire season in advance they will simply just pick the tables that appeal to them.

 

[Brock]

I don't quite understand it from Farsight's point of view.. Surely getting people to part with a wedge of cash a year in advance of the full product release is the golden egg of great business, even with the discount, especially being a small developer which could suffer from cash flow problems?
Keeping people interested in each and every table release, enough for them to make a purchase transaction EVERY month? Much harder surely?
I just don't get it. Surely the pre-season pass is great for both die-hard fan AND Farsight.

 

[Bowflex]

So why not just remove the season pack option from all iOS devices and leave the rest alone?
I can hold off on buying it for my iPod Touch, but I really liked paying for a full season on my PS3 (and now PS4) then having them show up for download.

I'm not sure exactly why everyone gets penalized because of Apple's ruling on this.
Is Farsight worried Apple fans will get jealous of other platforms or are they just using this as an excuse to do away with it.

Maybe they figure they will make more money without season discounts, but I don't think that's the case. Some of the people who I've turned on to TPA are casual players. They've purchased season packs in the past, but without an option to buy the entire season in advance they will simply just pick the tables that appeal to them.

I don't quite understand it from Farsight's point of view.. Surely getting people to part with a wedge of cash a year in advance of the full product release is the golden egg of great business, even with the discount, especially being a small developer which could suffer from cash flow problems?
Keeping people interested in each and every table release, enough for them to make a purchase transaction EVERY month? Much harder surely?
I just don't get it. Surely the pre-season pass is great for both die-hard fan AND Farsight.

To offer my perspective on what happened goes back into history. Farsight did damage their reputation by stating a few things now that are contrary to what was previously said. (As a brief review, the main items being that the price per table did not increase despite the initial tables being offered for 1.99-3.99, the reissues were free despite being offered indvidually for a charge, that the reissued tables were being redone from the ground up so they would take the same length of time when they were just tweaked but most of the art and everything was recycled and took minimal time to churn out). Couple this with a long history of mismanaging everything operations related (kickstarter promotion, PC release, X360 situation, especially the new publisher situation) and I believe they had a moment of clarity where they were able to determine a.) the current business model is simply not working, b.) theyare going for a cash grab or c.) they really sincerely think the best way of handling the situation with Apple is to penalize consumers on other platforms.

Don't get me wrong, I love the game. I like the individuals working there and I think they are generally extremely open and communicative with the fans relative to other companies. It's just that they have this tendency to fall on little white lies which I don't like because they are great at programming and making digital pinball recreations but absolutely horrible at running a business.

Offering a season pass up front is a great way to get a bunch of money but it does force you to operate in a different manner. Specifically it reduces the monthly amount of cash flowing in so you have to manage the pool of money you've collected to pay your expenses over the next several months. It also creates opportunity cost. What if the people buying the season pass would have bought the tables at full price? It is only a couple bucks per table but when you think of the thousands of people likely buying them over the course of so many months, that adds up to a huge amount. Same with changing the price to $5/table. They should have just stated that based on the expenses of operations, there is no way that 2 tables could continue to be offered at that price point so all future tables willl be increased. It's inflation. I remember when a candy bar cost 45 cents. Now it's a buck nineteen. That's more than 200% and that occurred in less than 10 years! The biggest mistake as a business was not offering tables at a higher price point (it could have been variable but 3-5 bucks per table from inception would have been a good idea) and increase the frequency of releases.

I don't have absolute fact to base any of the above on but it does make sense (to me anyway!). It's a business decision for one reason or another that they tried to sugarcoat and it backfired on them badly.

 

[brakel]

In an open economy there is no such thing as a cash grab. There are no economics professors teaching "cash grab" economics. I'm not meaning to pick on you Bowflex, I just don't like this nonsense term. It was a term made up by that sector of the Internet that thinks it's bad for companies to make a profit.

Do I care that FarSight has removed the preseason purchase option? Yes. But I'm more concerned with what flavor of wings I'm going to get when I go to Buffalo Wild Wings later tonight.

 

[superballs]

In an open economy there is no such thing as a cash grab. There are no economics professors teaching "cash grab" economics. I'm not meaning to pick on you Bowflex, I just don't like this nonsense term. It was a term made up by that sector of the Internet that thinks it's bad for companies to make a profit.

Do I care that FarSight has removed the preseason purchase option? Yes. But I'm more concerned with what flavor of wings I'm going to get when I go to Buffalo Wild Wings later tonight.

Especially no such thing as "cashgrab" for items that are strictly luxuries by nature which video games just happen to fall under. By it's very definition anything profitable is a cash grab, Including having a paying job.

 

[Bowflex]

I take no offense. My idea of a cash grab is creating a situation where you cut corners or raise prices unnecessarily to bring in more money. I define it as being profitable and taking advantage. I hate economics so I can't say I necessarily can phrase it perfectly but based on my perception of what it means I think it was an appropriate term. That aside, I don't assume or present any theory that farsight is acting on economic theory in their decisions. for all we know, farsight could believe that they can change their price and distribution model and take more revenue from it because they perceive the situation to be so. So if they are bringing in adequate money and believing they can make more by a few small changes to squeeze a few bucks more out of everyone, then they are taking advantage. I personally think they were just looking for a better revenue model and up front discounts were having an adverse effect on both total operating income as well as difficulties in arising for being able to manage their operating budget.

 

[ER777]

Cash Grab is a good scoring mode on Stern's Monopoly table.. I just felt the need to point that out for some reason.

b.) they are going for a cash grab...

I think if you replace this with "They saw an opportunity to increase profit margins by selling slightly fewer units but at enough of a higher average price (due to less discounts) to more than offset the fewer sales" then I would be on board with everything you said.

I hate economics...

Hey, economics is your friend! Economics is how we all decide what's worthwhile and what's not. Its also what my degree is in so maybe I'm biased..

 

[brakel]

I take no offense. My idea of a cash grab is creating a situation where you cut corners or raise prices unnecessarily to bring in more money. I define it as being profitable and taking advantage. I hate economics so I can't say I necessarily can phrase it perfectly but based on my perception of what it means I think it was an appropriate term. That aside, I don't assume or present any theory that farsight is acting on economic theory in their decisions. for all we know, farsight could believe that they can change their price and distribution model and take more revenue from it because they perceive the situation to be so. So if they are bringing in adequate money and believing they can make more by a few small changes to squeeze a few bucks more out of everyone, then they are taking advantage. I personally think they were just looking for a better revenue model and up front discounts were having an adverse effect on both total operating income as well as difficulties in arising for being able to manage their operating budget.

What do you mean by "raise prices unnecessarily"? While a company sets the price of their product it is the consumer market that decides if the price is too high. A company can't take "unfair advantage" in an open market. The video game market is a pretty open market.

It is every for profit company's goal to make their product for the least amount of money and sell it for the most amount of money. Not only is it a goal, their very survival depends on it because if they don't make their product as efficiently as possible another company will.

This doesn't mean that you make a cheap product necessarily. Maybe a company is going to make a luxury performance sedan and sell it for $80,000. They aren't going to make it "cheap" but if they find a way to make a performance engine for $1000 less than they did last year then they're going to do that as long as it still meets their specifications. Now let's say there's another company making a budget sedan to sell for $10,000. They might let their performance specs go down a bit if they can save $1000 on their engine production because their thing is to be a budget car not a performance or luxury car. Both companies might be able to make more money on each car for a while but eventually their competitors will figure out how they're saving so much money in production costs and they'll be undercut in price.

In either case its economics that's going to set the price. Companies will always want to set their prices as high as they can. There's always a price (even if no one knows what it is) that will maximize profits. It's a price that most of the target audience is willing to pay.

 

[Dream Demon]

To offer my perspective on what happened goes back into history. Farsight did damage their reputation by stating a few things now that are contrary to what was previously said. (As a brief review, the main items being that the price per table did not increase despite the initial tables being offered for 1.99-3.99, the reissues were free despite being offered indvidually for a charge, that the reissued tables were being redone from the ground up so they would take the same length of time when they were just tweaked but most of the art and everything was recycled and took minimal time to churn out). Couple this with a long history of mismanaging everything operations related (kickstarter promotion, PC release, X360 situation, especially the new publisher situation) and I believe they had a moment of clarity where they were able to determine a.) the current business model is simply not working, b.) theyare going for a cash grab or c.) they really sincerely think the best way of handling the situation with Apple is to penalize consumers on other platforms.

Don't get me wrong, I love the game. I like the individuals working there and I think they are generally extremely open and communicative with the fans relative to other companies. It's just that they have this tendency to fall on little white lies which I don't like because they are great at programming and making digital pinball recreations but absolutely horrible at running a business.

Offering a season pass up front is a great way to get a bunch of money but it does force you to operate in a different manner. Specifically it reduces the monthly amount of cash flowing in so you have to manage the pool of money you've collected to pay your expenses over the next several months. It also creates opportunity cost. What if the people buying the season pass would have bought the tables at full price? It is only a couple bucks per table but when you think of the thousands of people likely buying them over the course of so many months, that adds up to a huge amount. Same with changing the price to $5/table. They should have just stated that based on the expenses of operations, there is no way that 2 tables could continue to be offered at that price point so all future tables willl be increased. It's inflation. I remember when a candy bar cost 45 cents. Now it's a buck nineteen. That's more than 200% and that occurred in less than 10 years! The biggest mistake as a business was not offering tables at a higher price point (it could have been variable but 3-5 bucks per table from inception would have been a good idea) and increase the frequency of releases.

I don't have absolute fact to base any of the above on but it does make sense (to me anyway!). It's a business decision for one reason or another that they tried to sugarcoat and it backfired on them badly.

Well said, sir!

 

[superballs]

One thing that needs to be considered is that a lot of people seem to feel that non-essential items such as video games and movies and music are necessities and that it's some great injustice if for some reason they might miss out on them.

when someone makes something they are within their rights to price it at whatever they choose, and it's the customer base that will determine if the price is acceptable or not. If Farsight chose to release talks at 100$ a piece and they sold like hotcakes, no amount of whining or moaning would make them - drop their prices a red cent.

The biggest flaw in any argument on these forums is that they are usually presented as if the poster has any knowledge of farsights financials. People often talk about which tables sold more or less than other... usually based on nothing more than that person's opinion of said table in an "I don't like this table so it must not have sold well" manner.

 

[ZenTron]

We can see what "sales stay strong" means.

"We can now officially announce that the Pinball Arcade has extended it's WMS license! A bunch more Williams and Bally tables are included in this deal that will let us keep preserving awesome pinball for as long as our sales stay strong!"

 

[Dream Demon]

One thing that needs to be considered is that a lot of people seem to feel that non-essential items such as video games and movies and music are necessities and that it's some great injustice if for some reason they might miss out on them.

when someone makes something they are within their rights to price it at whatever they choose, and it's the customer base that will determine if the price is acceptable or not. If Farsight chose to release talks at 100$ a piece and they sold like hotcakes, no amount of whining or moaning would make them - drop their prices a red cent.

The biggest flaw in any argument on these forums is that they are usually presented as if the poster has any knowledge of farsights financials. People often talk about which tables sold more or less than other... usually based on nothing more than that person's opinion of said table in an "I don't like this table so it must not have sold well" manner.

I disagree on the last part, seeing that Farsight employees have said countless times on the FB page that most of their EM tables have sold very poorly. (Even though they were supposedly "free".)

I guess we'll know how right/wrong the customer is based on how long TPA lasts. As of now, there are more complaints about the business model than there are compliments. I think the majority fan base would agree that Farsight has a very POOR and UNORGANIZED business model.

Like previously mentioned, I love the games, but the company's way of handling things are almost embarrassing. I keep hoping for a better turnaround, and hopefully we'll get one. I'll continue to show my support by buying tables, but I'm not gonna suck up or/and be quiet about the issues, either.