Too easy tables (PC version)

[Sean DonCarlos]

The biggest problem really is that diagonal nudging doesn't work as a diagonal nudge, it works like a horizontal nudge + a vertical nudge. You're going to cap the tilt meter almost guaranteed with a single application. At least with CV you have a couple warnings to play with, but you really need to be use them judiciously.

Sounds like the scaling factors from the mobile versions didn't make it into the PC version then. We used to have this problem on iOS, and it was fixed by applying a reducing factor to the horizontal and vertical components so that the diagonal nudge had the same strength as the other nudges.

I'm assuming we're referring to keyboard nudging, right? Analog nudging on PC currently is busted, from what I've seen in the bug threads.

 

[JPelter]

Sounds like the scaling factors from the mobile versions didn't make it into the PC version then. We used to have this problem on iOS, and it was fixed by applying a reducing factor to the horizontal and vertical components so that the diagonal nudge had the same strength as the other nudges.

I'm assuming we're referring to keyboard nudging, right? Analog nudging on PC currently is busted, from what I've seen in the bug threads.

Oh, no. I meant analog nudging, sorry. It's probably more or less the same problem though.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Aside from the diagonal nudging being borked, I like the nudging as it is now because it's actually challenging since the tilt sensitivity is more realistic with an actual fear of tilting. In the beta, the tables would practically never tilt no matter how much you nudge (if you're gentle enough since even small nudges move the ball quite a bit while barely moving the tilt meter), so you could steer the ball wherever you want without worry. It was good in the sense of having more analog control, but not so good in the sense of making easy tables even easier. It would be great if we could have more analog control with a more realistic and strict tilt sensitivity...i.e. the best of both worlds ...or maybe as part of a difficulty option, and then have PS3-style nudging/sensitivity as the default difficulty option.

 

[superballs]

Aside from the diagonal nudging being borked, I like the nudging as it is now because it's actually challenging since the tilt sensitivity is more realistic with an actual fear of tilting. In the beta, the tables would practically never tilt no matter how much you nudge (if you're gentle enough since even small nudges move the ball quite a bit while barely moving the tilt meter), so you could steer the ball wherever you want without worry. It was good in the sense of having more analog control, but not so good in the sense of making easy tables even easier. It would be great if we could have more analog control with a more realistic and strict tilt sensitivity...i.e. the best of both worlds At least as part of a difficulty option, and then have PS3-style nudging/sensitivity as the default difficulty option.

I've been keeping quiet and thinking a lot about this whole analog nudge thing. I'm thinking, I've never "gently" shaken a 400 lbs pinball table. Hell, even in all the PAPA vids I've seen they slam on the sides and shove the machine. If analog nudging is to be implemented properly, i think there should only be two sensitivities. Hard and crazy-generate-a-warning hard. IRL it's much easier to get the bob swinging than it is to make a meaningful change to the ball's trajectory, unless it's against a wall or surface of some sort.

All told, I kind of like the more digital nudging, to the point that I put my controller away and went back to playing with the keyboard anyway.

 

[Jeff Strong]

I've been keeping quiet and thinking a lot about this whole analog nudge thing. I'm thinking, I've never "gently" shaken a 400 lbs pinball table. Hell, even in all the PAPA vids I've seen they slam on the sides and shove the machine. If analog nudging is to be implemented properly, i think there should only be two sensitivities. Hard and crazy-generate-a-warning hard. IRL it's much easier to get the bob swinging than it is to make a meaningful change to the ball's trajectory, unless it's against a wall or surface of some sort.

All told, I kind of like the more digital nudging, to the point that I put my controller away and went back to playing with the keyboard anyway.

Yes, and you even have to be careful with the "gentle" nudges in real life, at least in tournaments.

Yeah, I might try switching to the D-pad for nudging. I'm so used to touchscreen nudging where it's all or nothing, and you have to be more concerned about tilting. I like having that fear in the back of my mind. It keeps me on the edge of my seat.

 

[JPelter]

A counterpoint is that I see people in PAPA videos do slight nudging for scoring on EM machines a lot since it's pretty much necessary on them. It's currently kind of not possible on tables with stricter tilts on TPA like genie. You risk a tilt every time you even touch it even with diagonals turned off.

Actually a good example of very slight nudging on real tables is small taps players give to the machine on orbit returns to keep the ball off slingshots without any risk of a warning whatsoever. I did that a ton on PS3 because it was possible. Now depending on the table I have to ignore nudges that aren't absolutely critical and it makes the game less controllable, and less realistic. I don't really see why we can't have the same type of nudge controls the consoles do.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Good points, and I agree for the most part, but the thing is you can nudge some tables once per second for like 10 seconds straight on the PS3 without tilting. That's just overkill. And a full strength nudge should automatically give a warning for how much the ball moves, but it generally does not on PS3. So it seems there needs to be a balance across all platforms.

But yeah, I agree that the control is better on PS3; it's the tilt sensitivity that needs work.

 

[JPelter]

Good points, and I agree for the most part, but the thing is you can nudge some tables once per second for like 10 seconds straight on the PS3 without tilting. That's just overkill. And a full strength nudge should automatically give a warning for how much the ball moves, but it generally does not on PS3. So it seems there needs to be a balance across all platforms.

But yeah, I agree that the control is better on PS3; it's the tilt sensitivity that needs work.

Well put. Max strength nudges should be a serious tilt hazard or warnings. I just want the smaller adjustments possible really to give more chances for small control moves as necessary.

To condense my position since I've been posting too much about this already I guess this is the gist of it:
The smallest possible nudge you can give with an analog stick should not be able to tilt/warn outright from a zero tilt meter. Currently it can on some tables.

 

[David Greene]

Hopefully after all the new hardware roll-outs, FarSight will have some time to add a multiple difficulty settings to each table. I like having little easier tables than IRL. I am just an okay pinball player who has a great time playing pinball.

+1

 

[Tabe]

On Pc PBA, you can last 30 mins at first attempt.

That isn't even close to true for 99% of players.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

That isn't even close to true for 99% of players.

Careful. The citation police will want to know where you got the 99% figure from...

 

[RetroDude]

Careful. The citation police will want to know where you got the 99% figure from...

You are absolutely correct. I'm equal opportunity when it comes for wanting accuracy in posts.
Unsupported assertions and statistics don't help anyone.

Even when I agree with the point being made, like I do here.

Do you seriously have an issue with that?


I would have worded it differently, saying something more along the lines of "Based on the scores I see in the leader boards, I don't believe that's accurate for most players."

 

[Miguel Paulo]

That isn't even close to true for 99% of players.

you are asserting that, according to you, 99% of TBA PC players are disabled, I mean are console players?

 

[JPelter]

you are asserting that, according to you, 99% of TBA PC players are disabled, I mean are console players?

It is extremely unlikely that anyone picking up the game for the first time will be able to make a game last 30 minutes on any table released so far. On some tables I'd say you'll be hard pressed to do that even after tens of hours of playtime.

 

[Miguel Paulo]

It is extremely unlikely that anyone picking up the game for the first time will be able to make a game last 30 minutes on any table released so far. On some tables I'd say you'll be hard pressed to do that even after tens of hours of playtime.

I was kidding, but I'm not far from the truth as a noobie game will sometimes last a couple of seconds on any real table, which here is not possible at all. let's say a handful of seconds on a real table vs 5 mins on TPA counterparts. Which accounts for a huge casualisation of the real tables. Or maybe it' just the fact that every game are free that takes away some pressure and fails

 

[JPelter]

I was kidding, but I'm not far from the truth as a noobie game will sometimes last a couple of seconds on any real table, which here is not possible at all. let's say a handful of seconds on a real table vs 5 mins on TPA counterparts. Which accounts for a huge casualisation of the real tables. Or maybe it' just the fact that every game are free that takes away some pressure and fails

Yeah I understood what you meant. It's a pretty necessary thing to get the wider public interested in the game via good word of mouth to move product and keep existing for Farsight. Someone trying TotAN, which is kind of hard even in TPA, out with totally realistic settings and draining all three balls in under 30 seconds would probably be pretty bummed out and never shell out money for more tables. Hopefully in the future we'll have options for different skill levels to play.

 

[norbert26]

It is extremely unlikely that anyone picking up the game for the first time will be able to make a game last 30 minutes on any table released so far. On some tables I'd say you'll be hard pressed to do that even after tens of hours of playtime.

i get no where near 30 minutes. at the very best maybe 20 the ball flies too fast on my PC like a super waxed up table faster then at a RL machine. By the time i try to nudge or realize a nudge is needed the ball is in the outlane or the outhole. And these better 20 minute games are on the easier DMD tables that dole out extra balls generously.

 

[JPelter]

i get no where near 30 minutes. at the very best maybe 20 the ball flies too fast on my PC like a super waxed up table faster then at a RL machine. By the time i try to nudge or realize a nudge is needed the ball is in the outlane or the outhole. And these better 20 minute games are on the easier DMD tables that dole out extra balls generously.

Right, that was my point. The tables are easier than RL tables, but they're easy compared to machines that were designed very carefully to gobble up a lot of quarters.

 

[soundwave106]

Right, that was my point. The tables are easier than RL tables, but they're easy compared to machines that were designed very carefully to gobble up a lot of quarters.

TBH I don't find them *that* much easier. Some I actually find harder... TOM's trunk shot actually seems less forgiving in Pinball Arcade then I remember in real life, for instance.

TZ... in real life, it depended on the machine. Some machines in real life I remember were set up relatively easy. With good flippers and a slower playfield, it honestly was not too difficult for an experience pinball player to hit LITZ on those setups. Same with ST:TNG. Sure, you *could* set up those machines to be super hard, and I've encountered those types as well. But a lot of operators *didn't* -- after all, super drain monsters don't get repeat quarters from casual players as much, either.

From what I see The Pinball Arcade leans towards easier setups. But considering a lot of real life tables were not set up that way, it's strange to hear the complaints about things being "too easy". A video game marketed to the general public should be set up as tournament grade by default?

Attack From Mars is the only game I've played extensively in real life that I thought was oddly easier in The Pinball Arcade... but that might be me, since I haven't played that game in a while.

 

[Blueshirt]

AFM can be really hard in real life just due to... real life. In the end TPA is so much more controllable tables will be easier by default to a degree, but I believe it was said somewhere on this site by a dev that they DO make tables a bit easier than in real life. This might change table to table, too. TZ, for example, people were up in arms about it being "too easy"... subsequently, TNG was pretty frickin' hard off the bat. They do this on purpose, so that there's some easier tables, and some harder tables, and I think it's fine. Scared Stiff is easy, sure, but it's easy as heck in real life, too, so that's not too bad. It makes it a great starter table for new players. TotAN being a bit on the easy side is smart, too, as it'll help reel in new users who only have that one table. It's still moderately difficult to get to wizard mode when you're starting out, and it's such a fun wizard mode (one of the best in TPA at the moment, actually) that it becomes fun to try to string them together... almost got a third the other day. NGG I don't think is super easy either, but then again that IS another fairly easy table in real life, I find, as well.

The one I will agree with is funhouse. It's one of lawlor's best tables and I wish it was more challenging, because it's fantastic, but games can get... really long sometimes. A harder funhouse would be great, but I'm fine where we are at the moment, because at the very least I can see some rationale behind it. It does get you used to lawlor design philosophy and prepares you for tables like TZ and Ripley's.