Too easy tables (PC version)

[Deltaechoe]

AFM irl is hard, tpa its a lot easier and i think it's because of how Farsight had to do the ramps.

 

[xAzatothx]

the ramps in TPA are way too easy compared with IRL. TPA ramps have vacuum cleaners built into them.

 

[kristian]

If the tables have to be super easy, please at least fix the dip switches so we could get rid of the ridiculous amount of extra balls. I think I played Funhouse for over an hour... the extra balls just kept coming and it was really a challenge to get the ball drained.

Now the dip switch settings will not get saved. That's a major bug which should be fixed as soon as possible. Now it's practically seven or eight balls per game.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Yeah, Funhouse is the worst when it comes to dishing out a million extra balls. I'd really like an option to disable them as well.

 

[kristian]

Funhouse is a real disappointing table because of the difficulty level (non existent). And it's even more disappointing because the table itself looks incredible... really well made... and it plays fairly good too. It's just so ridiculously easy whereas the real machine was a real pain in the ass... challenging and borderline annoying as hell.

 

[Captain B. Zarre]

Ya sure? I remember playing one at Half Moon and it was relatively easy... Not as easy as in TPA, but still easy. The only things that felt wrong with it was that the Hidden Hallway would dispense balls out to the flippers and lead to SDTM drains.

 

[PinBalt]

I too would wish that Farsight would have a more realistic setting for challenge. I love the game but the flipper strength and lack of friction on the side hits of targets is frustrating. I can bounce the ball on CFTBL off the targets and up the large left ramp with ease! Same thing on Funhouse with the Super hotdog targets and into the kicker. I think they need more friction and random angles. Some shots feel too canned. Again, I really love the game and appreciate there efforts (own tables on multiple platforms) but I am looking for the most realistic pinball sim possible - especially for a cab mode.

Jim

 

[Captain B. Zarre]

Maybe they should put the ramp physics from CBW into other games...

 

[shutyertrap]

Ya sure? I remember playing one at Half Moon and it was relatively easy... Not as easy as in TPA, but still easy. The only things that felt wrong with it was that the Hidden Hallway would dispense balls out to the flippers and lead to SDTM drains.

I know I'm sure. Funhouse pops up at a couple of the houses we have league play at, and it is brutal every time. Scoring 3 million is considered really good, and if someone hits 7 or 8 million, they pretty much won that table for the night. Granted, we're playing with extra balls turned off, but it's still a beast. Hitting Rudy is often maddeningly hard to time, and the kickout is nowhere near as predictable as the TPA version.

 

[Captain B. Zarre]

Hmm... Well, machines differ from location to location, it's very noticeable with RBION...

 

[kristian]

Is there any chance to get a ROM support for some of the Solid State tables, like Black Knight?

It feels SO fake now. Cheers.

Another request (as per the subject title): It would be nice to get more challenging skill levels like a global "PRO" setting like something.

I'd play this more but damn most of the tables are still too easy.

 

[MagnumXL]

After playing this religiously for a week now here's my feedback on the tables:

Black Hole = This is wayyyyy too easy conversion.

Kristian! PD here; remember me? I agree that the tables are too easy. I'm hitting wizard modes on my first try on most tables. I'm not THAT good after being rusty with the real thing (or VP for that matter which I've only recently played to compare for the first time in years, believe it or not). The Mac versions seem a bit harder here than the Windows version (can run the Windows one virtualized in XP with VMWare Fusion on the same Mac even) and the flipper aim feels a bit better as well, but the lighting is definitely much nicer on the Windows version. Still, I always tried to make the VP versions as hard as the real machine and I knew I was there when my real world scores were similar to my VP scores. Nothing is perfect, but it's clear these tables have settings like Extra Balls out the wazoo that you would NEVER see in the real world (even though you could set them that way). One of the most fun things in the real world is getting good enough to win free games. Here, it defaults to Free Play and that doesn't even let you see how you're doing in that regard, not that it would mean much if the tables are way too easy.

As for Black Hole specifically, I played it for the first time in years at a Papa Tournament a couple of years ago in Carnegie, PA and wiped the top score on my first try, so I can't say the real machine was terribly hard to begin with, but it might have been a fluke. I just played RoadShow and toured the country twice without even trying on my first game. NO WAY would that happen on a real machine. Despite having nice animated toys, etc., little things like stand-up targets not moving when you hit them (they should move backward slightly and hit the contact switch, something I made painstaking efforts to recreate in VP) bug me. Firepower's lights lack the 3D layering effect of the clear lenses (clearly just a light up the 2D playfield effect with no real thought given to simulating the depth of the lights and they obviously haven't given any thought to fading light effects for incandescent bulbs that would make the lighting look a lot more real on dark tables). But still, at least I can play Junkyard and it LOOKS almost real. Some tables were too hard to accurately recreate all the toys, etc. in VP. I always wanted to do Pinball Magic, but I couldn't make the skill shot work in VP given it had no support for loop the loops type ramps. There's also no prototype rom options that I can tell so far (e.g. the moving building on Earthshaker) so not reason to throw out VP yet (plus no conversions of Data East games like Jurassic Park or Capcom tables so far). Safe to say I prefer my own Firepower and Centaur tables (lighting is disappointing on Centaur in PA). I think my White Water table looks better lighting wise and ramp smoothness wise. TAF is a bit of a wash in some respects, but theirs is pretty good and of course the 3D camera previews are nifty. I do like their Twilight Zone quite a lot and Cirqus Voltaire is nice. Getaway isn't bad, but the loop shot is WAY too easy and the magnetic accelerator lacks any kind of feeling of "acceleration" on slow entering balls, etc. I miss a lot of my extras on tables like AFM (i.e. the mini-saucer mini-led kit that is available in the real world that I recreated in VP, for example) and prototype options like decals on Cactus Canyon for the bandits and AFM's protype backdrop, etc. let alone my "PD CPU" modes that did crazy stuff like electrocute Uncle Fester sitting in the electric chair in TAF under certain conditions or change the skull in NO FEAR into a giant Pac-Man with a bandit mask.

Difficulty wise (other than maximum extra balls everywhere), my theory is that their virtual table "slope" is too shallow. It reminds me of the 4-5 setting on Visual Pinball that made some people's tables way too slow on the return ball and feel both slow and easy. I always liked a more realistic real world slope of 7-8 with fast game play and more difficulty. Basically, if I could play the real tables, I'd take them in a heart beat over any video game versions, but that's just not an option, at least for more than a few tables (expense and storage space). I don't mind strong flippers (new ones are strong). But that means the ball should come screaming back DOWN the table on rebounds (Firepower was NOTORIOUS in the real world for being unforgiving on rebound shots and it didn't usually have that strong of flippers to begin with in most locations. That didn't keep the ball from rebounding at high speed off those stand-up targets.

ProPinball had a great balance. It had adjustable table slopes and settings so you could make the tables easier or harder at will. What Pinball Arcade needs is an "ARCADE" mode! Higher table slopes and DEFAULT settings and add a CREDIT key and switch off Free Play so replays mean something. They could really use a better table knocker sound as well, IMO.

I agree. I also think some tables are challenging that were listed as easy. It's just the OP's subjective opinion on tables, and shouldn't be taken as objective fact, nor do I think it was meant to be. It just segued into general discussion about table difficulty and possible settings to change that and all that good stuff. I think it's a worthwhile discussion to have, but I'm just a dude playing pinballs.

Sorry guy, but what he's saying IS a virtual fact (yes it's based on individual skill, but we also have the the basis of the real world tables to compare). In case you weren't around for the arcade days of yesterday, arcade games weren't meant to be "easy" or give you extended game play. They were meant to suck quarters out of your pocket. Where pinball gave you a chance was to win free games when you started to improve, by beating replay values and getting on the high score board (plus specials, etc.). That meant an early investment in practice would eventually pay off in very cheap pinball game play (I once played 3.5 hours at the Redondo Beach arcade in California on a Theatre of Magic off 50 cents and eventually quit because I was getting tired of standing there. I left 12 credits on the machine from the one I purchased from wiping the score board, etc. And I'll say here and now THIS Theatre of Magic doesn't AIM right (I can shoot the shots on the real one all day long, not because it's easy, but because I practiced it to death so it was second nature). The right ramp is HARD in the real world while the center ramp is EASY (i.e. I can shoot the center ramp over and over endlessly in the real world and then shoot into the inner loop to lock the ball when I want to. Here, the flippers don't aim right to make that easy center shot (harder), but the right ramp is ridiculously easy to shoot here (if you missed in the real world you probably had a 50/50 chance of the ball heading straight back down the middle).

<Sigh> it just gets tiresome. OK, you're all Gods of Pinball, and congratulations to you. I love pinball myself, too, I'd play much more, if I could. But I can't, there's lots of things I have to do every day. TPA gives me a chance to play, at home, at the end of the day. To me, it's a great balance. It keeps me coming back. Every new table, every one of them, has a new thrill for me.

That's great. You're a beginner/casual player and you're enjoying it. I'm no "god of pinball" (although I've been called that because I used to recreate tables in Visual Pinball for 7 years), but I'm "decent" at the real world tables overall and I can typically win free games in short order and get my money's worth if the table is in decent condition. If the idea here is to recreate real world pinball tables like you would find in an arcade, doesn't it follow that the games should PLAY like the real world machines? If I put the MAME arcade emulator on my computer and run Donkey Kong, the nice thing about it is that it's the real world ARCADE version of Donkey Kong with the real world arcade difficulty of Donkey Kong, not the Colecovision version on Difficulty Setting 1 (easy). These machine were meant to eat quarters and so they weren't designed to be "easy". Pinball was nice that it would give you free credits, but it has a learning curve.

Too easy? Hardly. Most of the people in this world are not pinball immortals. Although I wish I could be, it's never going to happen. TPA has to be like a real arcade would set their tables. If they're so difficult that the the average, everyday player doesn't have a chance, why would they want to keep playing? Why would they keep spending money to play something, real or virtual, that's going to destroy them time after time? I know I wouldn't. I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't.

Sorry, but you're wrong. These are FAR easier than the real arcade versions for most, if not all the tables. Like I said, the payoff in the real world is that you can win games with enough practice. Donkey Kong wasn't REMOTELY "easy" in the arcade. Most people wouldn't last 5 minutes. By your logic, they would get frustrated and stop playing. Many did. Many others kept fishing quarters out of their pockets until they mastered the game and COULD play for 20 minutes or more. That's the challenge of arcade level video games and pinball. It's not supposed to be easy or there would be no challenge and therefore no reason to even bother doing it. If you can shoot free throws all day long, you might make some serious money in the Pros, but it wouldn't be a challenge for you, but then try winning basketball games against other Pro level players. The challenge is back. Here, the only challenge would be in extended (read HOURS) long games to try and beat Tarek Oberdieck's high scores (he's a human robot so don't bother). I just want the same challenge the arcade offered. As it is now, it's more nostalgia than any kind of challenge. It LOOKS like the real game. It smells like the real game. But it doesn't FEEL like the real game. But there's no reason it couldn't with a harder difficulty option (wipe out the overly generous extra balls, increase the table slope to get faster moving balls on rebounds and switch a reward system by using the CREDIT mode). There might be some other tweaks needed, but that would help a lot and that's coming from someone that recreated tables in Visual Pinball for 7 years and had many of the most popular tables out there. And yes, I got TONS of complaints the tables were "hard" from new players. I also got tons of compliments from people that missed playing the real thing and that's because unlike other table authors, I've played the heck out of real world pinball tables. Now for "perfect visuals" these games are hard to beat. They are modeled 3D recreations designs for computers with a lot more CPU/GPU power than 14 years ago when we first started trying to recreate our favorite tables. But game play accuracy should also matter.

 

[Heretic]

hold up a second pd as in pacdude? if so i had my best experiences with vp with yiur tables man, kudos

 

[MagnumXL]

hold up a second pd as in pacdude? if so i had my best experiences with vp with yiur tables man, kudos

Yeah, it's me. Thanks, dude.

 

[Ben Logan]

+1 on the shout out for pacdude. I'm a fellow fan of his VP tables.

 

[shutyertrap]

Yeah, it's me.

Oh man, welcome to the forum (belatedly)!

Your custom CPU for Centaur was my favorite thing you ever did. I've mentioned it here and in our BlahCade podcast. I even described it to Bobby and Norman at FarSight as being pure genius and highly disappointing it can never be added to TPA. While I enjoyed your other CPUs, that one actually changed the game and was the only way I played it. I still hear the multiball music I used (Burly Brawl from the Matrix) in my head start up when I get multiball in TPA version.

Hands down your were my favorite VP author and when you bailed from the scene, I pretty much did too. Your attention to detail was bar none and sorely missed after.

 

[SmoothBalls]

4.7 million is that all.

 

[The loafer]

Hi PD! (Carry on folks!)

 

[Heretic]

See! ...

Who needs wil weaton!

 

[TNT]

Speaking to Magnum's points aren't difficulty modes supposedly coming down the pipe sometime?