Request No more Gottlieb tables

[superballs]

Thanks for the detailed explanation. It's probably pretty clear by now that I'm doing a lot of catch-up work with pinball, and I wasn't there during these moments to understand why people feel the way they do with certain things. It makes a lot of sense--I never even thought of these Premier tables being something of mockbusters, if you're familiar with that term, but now that you point it out, I have GOT to take a look at these tables when I see them.

I'm actually not familiar with the term but it's a great term.

 

[DokkenRokken]

well, I really like that crap.

Good for you.

 

[Zombie Aladdin]

All right. You could probably tell from the portmanteau, but the term "mockbuster" refers to an imitation of a popular movie (or anticipated-to-be-popular movie) by a small studio. The idea is to leech off the popularity or sucker in clueless buyers who might mistake it for the real thing. Mockbusters, I notice, come out on DVD (rarely Blu-Ray) at about the same time the real movie comes out in theaters. Examples include Snakes on a Train, Ratatoing, and The Ice Queen--I don't think I need to list which movies they're ripping off. Here's a trailer for The Little Cars:

Gottliebs seem to be rare on location whenever I search around, regretfully. If they're as bad as people say they are, I should still try them to get a better idea of the criticisms, as I am jsut as interested in what makes bad pinball bad as what makes good pinball good. I'm going to guess that what people say about Gootlieb machines having bad workmanship is the reason for their scarcity--most probably have broken down between then and now. There are only two '90s Gottliebs I have found in public: Tee'd Off, which was modded; and Strikes-N-Spares, which is not the more famous one but the one that simulates bowling and was one of Gottlieb's last machines before going under.

 

[soundwave106]

Would Tee'd Off, then, be a knockoff of Caddyshack?

The "knock off" Premier games I think more refer to the late 1980s games, I think (which admittedly I have never remembered seeing). The DMD Gottliebs at least *looked* less like a rip-off much of the time, and sometimes used a license.

Still, I have played several Gottliebs from the DMD era (Tee'd Off, Shaq Attack, Cue Ball Wizard, Freddy, and perhaps a couple others I forgot about) and they never seemed to have the "total package" the Williams / Bally pins, or even the Data East pins, had. They just never had as good artwork or sound (often too repetitive soundbites for instance), and too frequently they had subpar rules design (unbalanced scoring in Tee'd Off, overuse of the ramp in Cue Ball Wizard, etc.)

 

[DokkenRokken]

The "knock off" Premier games I think more refer to the late 1980s games, I think (which admittedly I have never remembered seeing). The DMD Gottliebs at least *looked* less like a rip-off much of the time, and sometimes used a license.

Still, I have played several Gottliebs from the DMD era (Tee'd Off, Shaq Attack, Cue Ball Wizard, Freddy, and perhaps a couple others I forgot about) and they never seemed to have the "total package" the Williams / Bally pins, or even the Data East pins, had. They just never had as good artwork or sound (often too repetitive soundbites for instance), and too frequently they had subpar rules design (unbalanced scoring in Tee'd Off, overuse of the ramp in Cue Ball Wizard, etc.)

I shudder to think how much better "Freddy" could've been, had Williams or Bally produced it...

That being said, I think "Freddy" is one of the better, if not the best, Gottlieb DMD tables. The art is great, the music is fantastic, and the gameplay is pretty fun. As for Gottlieb, yeah, I think everyone is in agreement that their tables were the cheapest, laziest produced tables. It is what it is. At least there's a few gems out there. ("Class of 1812", "Rescue 911", "Freddy", "Stargate", etc etc)

 

[Zaphod77]

In my opinion here are the gems of Premiere.

Stargate
Gladiators
Surf N' Safari
Freddy

 

[kinggo]

you forgot Big Hurt

 

[Captain B. Zarre]

you forgot Big Hurt

1 billion point field value is not unbalancing at all.

Also forgot Bone Busters, TX Sector, Operation Thunder

 

[Kolchak357]

Played some TX Sector today. That pin is just super.

 

[CC13]

The "knock off" Premier games I think more refer to the late 1980s games, I think (which admittedly I have never remembered seeing). The DMD Gottliebs at least *looked* less like a rip-off much of the time, and sometimes used a license.

Still, I have played several Gottliebs from the DMD era (Tee'd Off, Shaq Attack, Cue Ball Wizard, Freddy, and perhaps a couple others I forgot about) and they never seemed to have the "total package" the Williams / Bally pins, or even the Data East pins, had. They just never had as good artwork or sound (often too repetitive soundbites for instance), and too frequently they had subpar rules design (unbalanced scoring in Tee'd Off, overuse of the ramp in Cue Ball Wizard, etc.)

I shudder to think how much better "Freddy" could've been, had Williams or Bally produced it...

That being said, I think "Freddy" is one of the better, if not the best, Gottlieb DMD tables. The art is great, the music is fantastic, and the gameplay is pretty fun. As for Gottlieb, yeah, I think everyone is in agreement that their tables were the cheapest, laziest produced tables. It is what it is. At least there's a few gems out there. ("Class of 1812", "Rescue 911", "Freddy", "Stargate", etc etc)

That's largely a result of their far shorter development cycles; according to this interview with Jon Norris, he usually only had 10-12 weeks to design a pinball table, while WMS typically gave their designers 12 months.

 

[DokkenRokken]

That's largely a result of their far shorter development cycles; according to this interview with Jon Norris, he usually only had 10-12 weeks to design a pinball table, while WMS typically gave their designers 12 months.

That crazy!

No wonder most of them are garbage.

 

[Zombie Aladdin]

Hmm, that's really interesting to know, actually. I believe the development cycle at Stern is currently 12 months (though it was 4 to 6 months in the late 00s).

Oh yeah, I played Freddy. I liked it, but I didn't know the rules, just that I was advancing nightmares oddly rapidly.

What is it about the artwork that irks you guys? The Pinball Arcade stuff seems fine to me, though Gunther in Tee'd Off looks off in perspective and disconnected from the rest of the artwork. I do like the artwork for Cue Ball Wizard and Class of 1812. Freddy is a licensed theme and thus HAS to look accurate to the source material, though I notice Williams and Bally will sometimes be a bit hasty in licensed property artwork too. (Not to knock on Python Anghelo, but his playfield artwork for Bugs Bunny's Birthday Bash has some rough linework, indicating a rush job, and has far too much white, causing certain things to blend in with the background.)

The background I've had for the longest amount of time is art and illustration, so it leaves me truly confused why the pinball enthusiasts seem annoyed at the artwork on stuff like Cue Ball Wizard when it looks fine to me. Then again, maybe I'm seeing low-resolution textures on Pinball Arcade, and it's not apparent until you see the real thing.

 

[kinggo]

1 billion point field value is not unbalancing at all.

well, we already have plenty of unbalanced tables so one more won't cause a big hurt.

 

[David Pannozzo]

You guys forgot Rescue 911, then all the awesome Premier tables will be out.

 

[kinggo]

no, we didn't. We talked about it on the previous page. And no, that one won't be missed.

 

[DokkenRokken]

"Rescue 911" is awesome, and a highly requested table:

Poll #5 : Gottlieb/Premier

1) Haunted House (1982)
2) Class of 1812 (1991)
3) Cue Ball Wizard (1992)
4) Street Fighter II (1993)
5) Wipe Out (1993)
6) Rescue 911 (1994)
7) Cactus Jack’s (1991)
8) Lights...Camera...Action! (1989)
9-T) Bone Busters Inc. (1989)
9-T) TX-Sector (1988)

 

[kinggo]

well, three more to go then. But poll for premier without stargate...... and HH as #1

 

[Kolchak357]

I think Stagate ended up in the licensed poll because it would be expensive to get. So it wasn't an option for the Gottlieb poll listed above. Also why Freddy Nightmare on Elm St isn't in there.

 

[DokkenRokken]

well, three more to go then. But poll for premier without stargate...... and HH as #1

Well, "Stargate" was in the Premium Poll along with "Freddy", and "Haunted House" ended up #1 because we all voted for it. lol

 

[Bowflex]

Well, "Stargate" was in the Premium Poll along with "Freddy", and "Haunted House" ended up #1 because we all voted for it. lol

Which is very telling about the gottlieb tables that were out there to choose from. The gottlieb poll had a much lower turnout than the other polls. I think if it asked for the top ten tables between all 4 of those core polls (no ems or premiums), you'd be hard pressed to find a gottlieb in the top 25 let alone the top ten.