Table Pack #27 speculation

[Kolchak357]

If they are gonna put Lights Camer Action out there, why not an EM? I'd much prefer Fireball, Wizard, Royal Flush, or Triple Strike. Can the gap between them be so great in terms of popularity?

LCA sold 1,708 units
Wizard! Sold 10,005 units
Royal Flush sold 12,250 units

I understand units sold isn't a perfect indicator of how a pin simulation will sell. But it can help indicate how well designed a pin is.

 

[DokkenRokken]

Also, I've seen a few members get warnings for essentially repeating the same opinion over and over and over in the same thread. I'm not going to try to convince you to like a table that you don't like, especially if I have no worth-while argument in the table's favour due to never playing it. Just trying to let you know before anyone with power decides to.

Fortunately, I think this has decreased greatly around here.

It's a nice change.

 

[Rudy hates me]

Even if you hate this, lets look on the bright side: This actually gives hope for tables like Mousin' Around, Bad Cats, Radical, and many others a lot of us want but assumed would never come now we're only getting single table releases. FS must have seen this backlash coming and are expecting lower sales for LCA, so it shows they're willing to take a chance on less requested tables being released individually from time to time. Lets just hope sales aren't so poor that it puts them off releasing anything other the 'safe' choices in the future, because there's not enough to fill many more seasons of TPA and we're gonna miss out on a lot of great tables.

 

[Freelance]

I've never played LCA so I can't share the same opinion as you, but I do buy every single table that comes out. I do it because a) I've never played any of them so I don't have any bias beforehand, and b) I want to support the devs as they're the only ones digitizing real pins. TPA is the only way I can play all these pins that I've never got to play growing up. So anyway, the fact that I have no clue what is 'good' and what is 'bad' before I play "X" pin is actually a good thing.

I reaaaaaaaaaaaaally want Radical BTW.

 

[lapaille]

I've never played LCA so I can't share the same opinion as you, but I do buy every single table that comes out. I do it because a) I've never played any of them so I don't have any bias beforehand, and b) I want to support the devs as they're the only ones digitizing real pins. TPA is the only way I can play all these pins that I've never got to play growing up.

I reaaaaaaaaaaaaally want Radical BTW.

+1

 

[Zombie Aladdin]

LOL @ all the butt-hurt Gottlieb haters.

I'm just glad to be able to play tables both great and rare. I don't understand throwing so much childish negativity toward tables you don't like. Some of us enjoy them. Deal with it.

It looks to be mostly one person posting again and again each time someone says something good or bad about Gottlieb as a company. That being said, I do see Gottlieb hate pop up anywhere on the Internet many pinball fans gather.

I understand units sold isn't a perfect indicator of how a pin simulation will sell. But it can help indicate how well designed a pin is.

I'd actually beg to differ--a pinball machine's sales, I'd say, would be based most strongly on its theme and its marketing. You listed EM tables, which were bought primarily by store owners for public play, and they most likely read the flyers and bought the ones that they felt would draw in the most people (not necessarily how well-designed it is). In other words, it's attractiveness that sells a machine, even more so during that time than it is now.

From what I gather, most pinball machines have at most two or three runs, which means most new-in-box pinball machines are bought by people who haven't even played it or seen it set up in public elsewhere, so it's not like one can easily stand back and watch other operators and see which machines turn a profit for them.

 

[Fungi]

Ah, but there's the advantage FarSight has. Unlike the operators in the real world, FarSight has the benefit of hindsight and have the records of what tables have done well. Both, for the manufacturers as well as the operators. Which then brings up the question, why LCA?

As a previous post put it, it's probably a left over from that run of Gottliebs at the end of Season 2.

 

[Kolchak357]

In other words, it's attractiveness that sells a machine, even more so during that time than it is now.

We disagree completely on this. I don't find anything particularly attractive about the theme or art of a game like Royal Flush. Common theme with average at best artwork. Yet a huge seller, based almost exclusively on gameplay.
I think this started to change with every last EMs and first SS machines. Pins like Evel Knievel, Captain Fantastic, and Kiss really started to change things. I'd agree with you on those but not the majority of EMs that came before that time period.
While today theme is king. That is why practically every modern Stern is tied to such a heavily licensed theme.
But hey it's an opinion, we don't have to agree.

 

[Zorgwon]

LCA sold 1,708 units
Wizard! Sold 10,005 units
Royal Flush sold 12,250 units

I understand units sold isn't a perfect indicator of how a pin simulation will sell. But it can help indicate how well designed a pin is.

Joker Poker sold 9,280 units

I don't like Eight Ball despite its high production run and I don't think it's so great.

But it would definitely be nice to have a change from the early 90s tables.

I actually looked into my PC directories. This is not very difficult to do. LCA is there.

 

[Pinballwiz45b]

Weird, it doesn't look like driveway cheese to me...

It looks like someone covered up the spoilers with an Easter bonnet; this table MUSTN'T be revealed THAT soon!

 

[Kolchak357]

I actually looked into my PC directories. This is not very difficult to do. *** is there.

We don't doubt it is there, but the Mods on this forum have threatened forum banning people for reporting this info prior to FS officially unveiling the next release. It is done as a courtesy to FarSight. If you want my advice, just don't do it on the forum. It is frowned upon.

 

[shutyertrap]

I hate Gottlieb. I even refused to vote in that poll, because I don't enjoy their tables. At least I don't have to suffer with Zaccaria machines too.

As for the mining of the PC file to figure out what is coming next...yeah, it's frowned upon, and I knew that before becoming a Mod. Considering those posts were made 2 pages back, I'm not gonna do anything about it (cat is outta the bag?), but please refrain from blatantly confirming that this is where certain info has been gotten, okay?

I can tell you that when I was last up at FarSight, which was in November right before CBW was announced, I did not see LCA on site. They did have Fish Tales already, in preparation for getting the next go around of Bally/Williams licensing. So I doubt this is a case of them sitting on a table for employee vacation time. When Podcast #7 comes out in a few days, you all might want to listen as I interview Norman from FS, and he's the guy who buys all the machines, which we talk about. I think you table speculators will get a lot out of it, might help your thought processes.

 

[netizen]

While today theme is king. That is why practically every modern Stern is tied to such a heavily licensed theme.
But hey it's an opinion, we don't have to agree.

I thought a major reason modern Stern's were licensed themes was due to the way Gary Stern was influenced in development methods with his time at Data East. Their themes were essentially the same sort of license driven marketing as modern Stern's are doing.

 

[soundwave106]

Even if you hate this, lets look on the bright side: This actually gives hope for tables like Mousin' Around, Bad Cats, Radical, and many others a lot of us want but assumed would never come now we're only getting single table releases. FS must have seen this backlash coming and are expecting lower sales for LCA, so it shows they're willing to take a chance on less requested tables being released individually from time to time. Lets just hope sales aren't so poor that it puts them off releasing anything other the 'safe' choices in the future, because there's not enough to fill many more seasons of TPA and we're gonna miss out on a lot of great tables.

Well, in another thread I speculated that one way Farsight might flush out the next couple of seasons is to pass over some great older tables and release some blah / mediocre DMDs or System 11s instead... cynical me says, with this surprisingly (to me) semi-confirmed, that this really is the trend, except its blah alphanumeric Gottliebs instead.

(I am speculating a bit on LCA since I've never played it, basing my expectations sort of around Victory. Victory is around this era and honestly is one of the tables I play the least. Since I'm on the season pack, I'll see. Maybe I'll end up pleasantly surprised.)

 

[shogun00]

As many have stated, if they need to put in more Gottliebs, why not Wipe Out.

Probably because of music rights issue. The Wipe Out table uses a modified version of the song "Wipe Out" from The Surfaris.

 

[Mark W**a]

Joker Poker sold 9,280 units

I don't like Eight Ball despite its high production run and I don't think it's so great.

But it would definitely be nice to have a change from the early 90s tables.

I actually looked into my PC directories. This is not very difficult to do. LCA is there.

How sick would a Joker Poker + Wizard! or Royal Flush 2 pack been?

Or if Farsight needs a filler month that bad, why not Sorcerer + Ace High 2 pack, Xenon or Eight Ball single.... there's many ways to "fill" a month without pissing everyone off.

It's not just Pinball Arcade fans either. Actually I would bet the Facebook/mainstream are even more rabidly against Premier games.

Not going to be a good month so just recommend everyone focus on swimming, fun in the sun, and vollyball for June and just forget pinball arcade exists until July lol.

 

[Kratos3]

Personally, I like most of the gottliebs we have.

Black Hole is one of my favorite tables in TPA, i think it's well thought out and has a neat progression to it, and I like the way they emphasize building the bonus and forcing you to risk going to the lower playfield to do so.

Big Shot is a generally well looked upon table by most, except those who are die-hard EM haters. It's a tough, challenging table with simple objectives and is great for when you don't have all day to play a single game of pinball.

Genie is definitely a bit controversial, there are those who like it and those who hate it. I hated it at first but have grown to like it after taking the time to understand it. It's more complex than the layout suggests with a lot of subtleties. Not for everyone but a solid older widebody.

CBW is an ok game, not a pillar of greatness but it doesn't suck.

Class of 1812 is a fun table, though the character raps make me want to scream. Have you ever watched a movie with your family that you suggested and it happens to have some crazy sex scene in it that makes you feel really awkward to watch? That is what the character raps make me feel. Other than that the table is quite fun.

El Dorado i think would have been better as an EM, not sure why it would be better, but since it was originally an EM i think it should have been released as one. I like the table though, another nice simple one that demands accuracy

Victory is a competent lane shooter. Requires skill and does kind of feel like doing laps, since that's pretty well what you're doing by hitting the checkpoints...by far one of the worst looking tables with the worst offending textures though.

I think the only Gottlieb I don't actually like is Haunted House, which is probably my least favorite table, even under Harley Davidson.

I find myself going back to Victory more and more. It's been almost universally panned here, but I like it. Now if it could get a little treatment in the next PSN patch......

I think El Dorado is pretty decent too. Along with Black Hole, I've liked these tables the more I've played them.

1812 and CBW I don't really play very often, but they're not the worst.

Genie just isn't my thing. I don't really like Central Park. Haunted House and Tee'd Off do nothing for me, and Goin Nuts I could do without.

I guess I don't understand classifying LCA as a dud or bad table just because it's Gottlieb. That's like saying all Australians are weirdos because you've seen lots of Wiggles shows.

 

[Zombie Aladdin]

This has been something I've been trying to look into ever since I got into pinball last year: Why people seem to hate on Gottlieb so much (and to a lesser extent, Data East and Stern). At first, I thought it was some sort of Cosole Wars type brand loyalty going on, but then I noticed the lack of Gottlieb fans on the other side trashing Williams and Bally machines (though I am seeing a growing number of Stern fans). I haven't had much of a chance to play Gottlieb machines, limited only to Freddy: A Nightmare on Elm Street, Tee'd Off, Street Fighter II, Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros.: Mushroom World, and Strikes-N-Spares (1995), but this is what I got out of it:

1. Gottlieb machines are flaky when they're new and break down easily. The high maintenance required compared to Williams's or Bally's grows annoying over time to operators and home-buyers alike.
2. Scoring on Gottlieb machines is out of whack. There is usually one thing, sometimes two, that is worth substantially more than anything else in the game (whether it be a game mechanic, mode, or a shot), centralizing those playing for score to go for that thing alone. This seems to be a criticism directed at Data East pretty often too.
3. The rules are simplistic and a bit too straightforward. Either the game railroads you into one or two particular shots to make at a time in a fixed order or there is little to no sense of progression. Much of the time, there are a number of shots on the playfield not used in anything of value. In a few cases, there are many shots to make and there is much progression, but the gameplay devolves into shot-cutscene-shot-cutscene-etc., such as with Street Fighter II.
4. Something about awkward shots, but I don't know enough examples to really understand this one. I'm guessing it's related to "flow," a concept I also don't fully understand yet.

That being said, when a Gottlieb machine has none of those traits, they seem to be liked. An example is Super Mario Bros., which was unusually tough for a pinball machine (let alone a Gottlieb), had nothing particularly unbalanced, and had a good sense of progression that utilizes most of the playfield. However, when someone is biased against Gottlieb or has never played a Gottlieb he or she is satisfied with, it's understandable to start hating on Lights... Camera... ACTION! without having played it before.

We disagree completely on this. I don't find anything particularly attractive about the theme or art of a game like Royal Flush. Common theme with average at best artwork. Yet a huge seller, based almost exclusively on gameplay.
I think this started to change with every last EMs and first SS machines. Pins like Evel Knievel, Captain Fantastic, and Kiss really started to change things. I'd agree with you on those but not the majority of EMs that came before that time period.
While today theme is king. That is why practically every modern Stern is tied to such a heavily licensed theme.
But hey it's an opinion, we don't have to agree.

The issue is this though: How would the operators have known something like Royal Flush would have good gameplay? Most of them would have obtained a machine before anyone outside of Gottlieb even got to play it. In addition, most operators of the time of Royal Flush did not even play pinball. They bought it as a revenue enhancer.

I thought a major reason modern Stern's were licensed themes was due to the way Gary Stern was influenced in development methods with his time at Data East. Their themes were essentially the same sort of license driven marketing as modern Stern's are doing.

I figured it's because operators will no longer buy a new pinball machine without a good theme attached to it. Heck, people walking on by will pick a licensed-theme machine over a non-licensed one. Operators around here, for instance, seem to use The Simpsons Pinball Party as a last resort as it's a guaranteed money-maker on the theme alone.

 

[Bowflex]

We disagree completely on this. I don't find anything particularly attractive about the theme or art of a game like Royal Flush. Common theme with average at best artwork. Yet a huge seller, based almost exclusively on gameplay.
I think this started to change with every last EMs and first SS machines. Pins like Evel Knievel, Captain Fantastic, and Kiss really started to change things. I'd agree with you on those but not the majority of EMs that came before that time period.
While today theme is king. That is why practically every modern Stern is tied to such a heavily licensed theme.
But hey it's an opinion, we don't have to agree.

See! You mentioned Evel Knievel. It hasn't been brought up in a while but TPA is in desperate need of its greatness. It actually is a pretty darn fun game. My girlfriend's stepdad owns that table!

 

[Kolchak357]

The issue is this though: How would the operators have known something like Royal Flush would have good gameplay? Most of them would have obtained a machine before anyone outside of Gottlieb even got to play it. In addition, most operators of the time of Royal Flush did not even play pinball. They bought it as a revenue enhancer.

The answer lies in extra runs of making the pin. I'm sure we both agree they didn't just make over 12,000 units right off the bat. They kept making them because operators kept placing orders. The operators ordered more because the pin was a money maker. I believe that is because of gameplay as I find the art and theme nothing special. I know the first time I walked up to one, I wasn't that impressed with the look of it. But after I played it, I couldn't walk away from it. That's all I'm trying to say.
But I agree totally with you on modern day pins. I don't think an operator will consider a pin without a good theme attached to it either. Being a good playing pin these days is more of a bonus.