Table Pack #27 speculation

[soundwave106]

I still think it's hands down one of the most overrated tables that's talked about around here. I still remember how mad people were about "Cue Ball Wizard", only to then turn around and say "Hey, this isn't that bad!".

Well, that wouldn't be me. I have played both EBD (the second run version) and Cue Ball Wizard in real life. EBD is a good "shot control" pin, there is no theme or anything, but it's a nicely balanced game that rewards ball control. CBW is flashier but like many DMD Gottliebs it's unbalanced. In CBD, you shore need that ramp shot. Again. And again. And again.

The nice thing about EBD is that they supposedly have already emulated the ROM (for Centaur) so it shouldn't suffer the EM difficulty where they'd need to script it. Maybe they don't sell well, but die hard pinheads like them ya know. Make these pins bonus content for season packs or Kickstarter rewards then.

I'll admit that very few other pins from that era strike me as priorities. I've never played a pin older than EBD that I can recall (apart from an EM my uncle had). Of the ones I've heard described (not in TPA now), to me the most intriguing non-licensed early SS would be Xenon.

 

[DokkenRokken]

Nonsense! If you believe a couple of loudmouth facebook comments represent the pinball community in general you are sorely mistaken, I believe.

You sound like you believe one or two classic tables would destroy the company and make the season a waste.(what made season 2 a bit under par in my view was a few not so great Gottlieb tables towards the end of the season. Nothing classic about those)
You get your dmd fix every month so if you think these classics is that bad, just don't buy them and take a break for a month. Of course they need to sell for Farsight to release them but the most popular early 80' tables will sell just fine and a little variety does not hurt anyone.

I am from the early 90' crowd (when pinball started popping up in every bar over here) and I know a bunch of other "pinheads" from that same area that enjoy early ss tables too. Yes, we are probably older than you and not part of the tpa facebook crowd either, but remember that the facebook crowd is not what makes or breaks this game alone. New tables will always sell more,(that is also what I have in my collection) Does not mean that we have to abandon the old machines completely.

Rant mode Off

Oh, where do I begin? lol

First off, I never said that the Facebook page crowd represents the entire Pinball community. However, that page has about 10x the amount of people over there than it does here, so that's pretty significant. I think the page represents pinheads of all eras vs over here, it's mostly the older crowd. I'd like to think that the constant talk of and love for EMs over here are just a bit of proof of that.

Secondly, again, I never said one or two classics would "destroy the company". lol It has been noted that various Farsight employees have noted that the EM tables have sold very poorly and are the least requested, backed up by the fact that we only have 2-3 EM tables vs all the SS/DMD tables. Personally, (and I've said this many times before) I wouldn't mind having 1 EM a season, just to please the old school fans. Yeah, those aren't my favorite tables, but I think ALL generations of pinheads should be pleased, not just the SS/DMD crowd. Unfortunately for you, those are the tables that sell the most and are requested the most. This is just a fact that some of you are going to have to live with. (Oh, and then there's the fact that "Ace high" and a few of the other EM tables that were originally released before got left out this time around for tables like "Fish Tales".)

Third, my favorite tables are mostly SS, not DMD. Sorry to disappoint you.

Fourth, I grew up on pinball from the mid 80s, so we're probably not that far off in age. (Which shouldn't even matter in this discussion, anyway) You claim that the FB crowd doesn't "make or break the company", and I'll agree with that, but the constant negativity for them on here is ridiculous. I'm not sure if you know this, but Facebook is one of the most popular, most successful, and most socially relevant media sites in the world... I'd like to think that the exposure Farsight gets from that is just a tad bit better than an old school Forum that barely has 5,000 members. (Least of all probably about 500 members or less are actively posting and participating daily) In the end, We're ALL fans of the game and the company, and one is not better than the other. (Even though some try to claim otherwise)

Do you seriously think that FB posters represent the public at large, let alone the pinball public? This forum, dedicated to TPA, is clearly more representative of what will sell.

Do I think the FB crowd represents the entire Pinball community? No. However, again, the numbers don't lie and the fact that Facebook is the #1 leading and most successful media site in the world kinda rules in my favor. The fact is, there are over 20,000 fans over there, and I regularly see posts with hundreds of comments, so many are participating daily.

If this forum was more "representative of what will sell", than how come all these great, awesome, super EM tables never get made? How come "Cue Ball Wizard" beat out "Eight Ball Deluxe"? I disagree with your statement immensely and it's already been proven wrong. It was really proven wrong the second Farsight said "We liked Cue Ball Wizard" better. If this forum represented the most popular tables, than all these suggested tables would've been made by now. Instead, all they've done is made mid 80s-mid 90's tables that the majority of Pinheads want. (SS/DMD)

Furthermore, again, the company has repeatedly said that EM tables don't really sell and aren't requested that much. You can look up the various quotes on the FB page or even ask some of the employees that post here. They'll tell you the same thing. So, the fact that majority here love and want EM's, yet they never get made and are hardly ever requested, kinda proves your statement to be untrue.

This very forum exists out of disdain for the Facebook crowd. This is like the Mos Eisley Cantina and they are like droids.

And it's childish nonsense like this is why the Facebook page has 10x the fans. For all the complaining I've seen about how terrible that crowd is, some of the people over here sure don't make the argument on how this place is any better. lol


Like I said, we ALL support the game and the company, and I have no problem with EMs. However, the facts speak for themselves. The facts are that EM's don't sell, aren't very popular, and we'll continue to see more and more SS and DMD games.

 

[Captain B. Zarre]

Oh, where do I begin? lol

First off, I never said that the Facebook page crowd represents the entire Pinball community. However, that page has about 10x the amount of people over there than it does here, so that's pretty significant. I think the page represents pinheads of all eras vs over here, it's mostly the older crowd. I'd like to think that the constant talk of and love for EMs over here are just a bit of proof of that.

Secondly, again, I never said one or two classics would "destroy the company". lol It has been noted that various Farsight employees have noted that the EM tables have sold very poorly and are the least requested, backed up by the fact that we only have 2-3 EM tables vs all the SS/DMD tables. Personally, (and I've said this many times before) I wouldn't mind having 1 EM a season, just to please the old school fans. Yeah, those aren't my favorite tables, but I think ALL generations of pinheads should be pleased, not just the SS/DMD crowd. Unfortunately for you, those are the tables that sell the most and are requested the most. This is just a fact that some of you are going to have to live with. (Oh, and then there's the fact that "Ace high" and a few of the other EM tables that were originally released before got left out this time around for tables like "Fish Tales".)

Third, my favorite tables are mostly SS, not DMD. Sorry to disappoint you.

Fourth, I grew up on pinball from the mid 80s, so we're probably not that far off in age. (Which shouldn't even matter in this discussion, anyway) You claim that the FB crowd doesn't "make or break the company", and I'll agree with that, but the constant negativity for them on here is ridiculous. I'm not sure if you know this, but Facebook is one of the most popular, most successful, and most socially relevant media sites in the world... I'd like to think that the exposure Farsight gets from that is just a tad bit better than an old school Forum that barely has 5,000 members. (Least of all probably about 500 members or less are actively posting and participating daily) In the end, We're ALL fans of the game and the company, and one is not better than the other. (Even though some try to claim otherwise)



Do I think the FB crowd represents the entire Pinball community? No. However, again, the numbers don't lie and the fact that Facebook is the #1 leading and most successful media site in the world kinda rules in my favor. The fact is, there are over 20,000 fans over there, and I regularly see posts with hundreds of comments, so many are participating daily.

If this forum was more "representative of what will sell", than how come all these great, awesome, super EM tables never get made? How come "Cue Ball Wizard" beat out "Eight Ball Deluxe"? I disagree with your statement immensely and it's already been proven wrong. It was really proven wrong the second Farsight said "We liked Cue Ball Wizard" better. If this forum represented the most popular tables, than all these suggested tables would've been made by now. Instead, all they've done is made mid 80s-mid 90's tables that the majority of Pinheads want. (SS/DMD)

Furthermore, again, the company has repeatedly said that EM tables don't really sell and aren't requested that much. You can look up the various quotes on the FB page or even ask some of the employees that post here. They'll tell you the same thing. So, the fact that majority here love and want EM's, yet they never get made and are hardly ever requested, kinda proves your statement to be untrue.




And it's childish nonsense like this is why the Facebook page has 10x the fans. For all the complaining I've seen about how terrible that crowd is, some of the people over here sure don't make the argument on how this place is any better. lol


Like I said, we ALL support the game and the company, and I have no problem with EMs. However, the facts speak for themselves. The facts are that EM's don't sell, aren't very popular, and we'll continue to see more and more SS and DMD games.

Mechanix77? Is that you?

 

[DokkenRokken]

Mechanix77? Is that you?

I don't know who that is, but I was just sent a PM from someone on here, and it seems that I'm not alone in my opinions in this thread:

I just read your posts on the Table Pack #27 thread and I can't agree with you more with your remarks about the forum vs Facebook. I really have to applaud you for defending yourself, while it looks like all of the other members are trying to shoot your opinion down. I'm just letting you know, that you are not alone. I can guarantee that many other people have the same opinion as yours.

The following was what I was planning to write and post on the forum, but I decided not to in the end.

This forum is great in learning in what the hardcore pinball audience wants, but it's impossible to grasp what the core audience and the casual audience wants and those two groups are very important when it comes to business. The Core and Casual groups are where the most sales come from. The hardcore audience can only do so much.

When it comes to the casual audience, it's hard to gauge them since most of them are silent. They vote with their wallets and nothing else. They are rarely vocal and don't make a lot of noise. What most businesses do is gauge the interest of the core audience, since many of them are at the teetering point of being either a hardcore player or a casual player. Understanding what they want can help give Farsight an idea on what the casual audience may be looking for. Some core gamers will attend these forums, but most of them go with the most convenient way to communicate. That would be Facebook, which they already use for socializing with their friends and other businesses.

I'm not gonna post who said it, because that wouldn't be cool, but again, just proves my point.

I'm not sure why there needs to be such a silly divide between either crowd? We're all here to support the company and the game.

Anyway, getting back on topic, I hope the next table is "Safe Cracker". (With an option to turn the timer off)

 

[k88dad]

Dokken, FB's popularity is not in question. It's representation of what would sell in TPA is. Someone advocating within these forums is much more likely to actually make a purchase from FS (and less likely to pirate, I dare say.) These forums also represent people of all ages. The demographics in these forums have been polled, and it was a pretty typical gamer bell curve—lots of people in their 20s and 30s.

Cue Ball Wizard, for one, was made because FS had the rights to make Gottlieb/Premier (and little else) at the time. Hence, a string of Gottliebs in a row. I'll certainly agree with anyone who says that CBW is a boring table. Gottlieb's heyday was long-since past when CBW was made.

I've advocated for a few EMs, but most of what has been mentioned in this thread have been SS tables. Eight Ball Deluxe, Fathom and Embryon are all SS. Why do you keep railing about EM? It's like you don't even know what you're talking about.

 

[superballs]

Oh, where do I begin? lol

First off, I never said that the Facebook page crowd represents the entire Pinball community. However, that page has about 10x the amount of people over there than it does here, so that's pretty significant. I think the page represents pinheads of all eras vs over here, it's mostly the older crowd. I'd like to think that the constant talk of and love for EMs over here are just a bit of proof of that.

Secondly, again, I never said one or two classics would "destroy the company". lol It has been noted that various Farsight employees have noted that the EM tables have sold very poorly and are the least requested, backed up by the fact that we only have 2-3 EM tables vs all the SS/DMD tables. Personally, (and I've said this many times before) I wouldn't mind having 1 EM a season, just to please the old school fans. Yeah, those aren't my favorite tables, but I think ALL generations of pinheads should be pleased, not just the SS/DMD crowd. Unfortunately for you, those are the tables that sell the most and are requested the most. This is just a fact that some of you are going to have to live with. (Oh, and then there's the fact that "Ace high" and a few of the other EM tables that were originally released before got left out this time around for tables like "Fish Tales".)

Third, my favorite tables are mostly SS, not DMD. Sorry to disappoint you.

Fourth, I grew up on pinball from the mid 80s, so we're probably not that far off in age. (Which shouldn't even matter in this discussion, anyway) You claim that the FB crowd doesn't "make or break the company", and I'll agree with that, but the constant negativity for them on here is ridiculous. I'm not sure if you know this, but Facebook is one of the most popular, most successful, and most socially relevant media sites in the world... I'd like to think that the exposure Farsight gets from that is just a tad bit better than an old school Forum that barely has 5,000 members. (Least of all probably about 500 members or less are actively posting and participating daily) In the end, We're ALL fans of the game and the company, and one is not better than the other. (Even though some try to claim otherwise)



Do I think the FB crowd represents the entire Pinball community? No. However, again, the numbers don't lie and the fact that Facebook is the #1 leading and most successful media site in the world kinda rules in my favor. The fact is, there are over 20,000 fans over there, and I regularly see posts with hundreds of comments, so many are participating daily.

If this forum was more "representative of what will sell", than how come all these great, awesome, super EM tables never get made? How come "Cue Ball Wizard" beat out "Eight Ball Deluxe"? I disagree with your statement immensely and it's already been proven wrong. It was really proven wrong the second Farsight said "We liked Cue Ball Wizard" better. If this forum represented the most popular tables, than all these suggested tables would've been made by now. Instead, all they've done is made mid 80s-mid 90's tables that the majority of Pinheads want. (SS/DMD)

Furthermore, again, the company has repeatedly said that EM tables don't really sell and aren't requested that much. You can look up the various quotes on the FB page or even ask some of the employees that post here. They'll tell you the same thing. So, the fact that majority here love and want EM's, yet they never get made and are hardly ever requested, kinda proves your statement to be untrue.




And it's childish nonsense like this is why the Facebook page has 10x the fans. For all the complaining I've seen about how terrible that crowd is, some of the people over here sure don't make the argument on how this place is any better. lol


Like I said, we ALL support the game and the company, and I have no problem with EMs. However, the facts speak for themselves. The facts are that EM's don't sell, aren't very popular, and we'll continue to see more and more SS and DMD games.

You can call it as childish as you want, but this forum came into existence because the facebook page was full of annoying people and not very good discussion.
If you haven't figured out, most of the people here are part of that page anyway, so we actually are part of those numbers, we just prefer to actually discuss things here.

I'm sure I could convince someone to PM me to tell me they don't like the FB page much either and it would prove my point, at least by your standards.

This forum is actually a pretty tight knit community, even though people tend to rub each other the wrong way sometimes. And sometimes we disagree with each other vehemently, it's part of being here. And as long as people are only shooting down your opinions, at least with an attempt at semi-valid reasoning, as opposed to attacking you directly, then things are ok. You don't have to like people's opinions here, and you can't just expect people to like yours. It's really not a bad thing, this creates discussion, and sometimes things get a little interesting. The mods here even let some stuff go as long as certain lines aren't crossed.

The fact remains...a lot of us, especially those of us who have been here since near the beginning of the forums, came here because we didn't like the environment of the facebook page, like that or not it is what is.

A lot of us here, while we might only be say, 5000 strong at the best of times, tend to be multi purchasers of the product. Personally i own everything on 360, a good chunk of season one on iOS (only reason i am not further is that I don't have an iDevice anymore), everything on Android and everything on Steam. This isn't because we are mindless slaves but because, despite some minor annoyances, we actually just plain like the product.

Well, went off on a bit of a tangent there, but m'eh.

 

[Shaneus]

Shouldn't pain us to say it. We've been spoiled with a lot of Ritchie tables. I just want to see something different before seeing another. Even my beloved The Getaway.

Shouldn't, but as PAF's token Ritchie fanboy (lols) I should be begging for more of them. I'd like to see more, but more *different* ones. I think No Fear would be a great SR table purely because it's that much different from all his other ones.

Flash as well, would love to see that as something else that's a bit different. And F-14, that's different, too.

 

[neglectoid]

Shouldn't, but as PAF's token Ritchie fanboy (lols) I should be begging for more of them. I'd like to see more, but more *different* ones. I think No Fear would be a great SR table purely because it's that much different from all his other ones.

Flash as well, would love to see that as something else that's a bit different. And F-14, that's different, too.

I have very fond memories of flash.
I love no fear. I have probably spent over 300 hours playing it.
f-14 is an awesome game. I remember when our arcade got one in the 80's, ALOT of video gamers (non pinheads) were pumping quarters into it. on weekend nights every match was a 4 player game. you had to wait in line to play. ahhhh good times.

 

[Shaneus]

At least that line would've moved quickly

 

[pm1109]

I wonder what the 3 mystery tables will be for season 3
That's what everyone wants to know

 

[DokkenRokken]

Cue Ball Wizard, for one, was made because FS had the rights to make Gottlieb/Premier (and little else) at the time. Hence, a string of Gottliebs in a row. I'll certainly agree with anyone who says that CBW is a boring table. Gottlieb's heyday was long-since past when CBW was made.

This is actually false, as I've personally asked about it. They made it because they wanted to make it.

Yes, it's true the Williams license contract had run out, but they also had very little Gottlieb tables at the time, hence why they put so many out. Plus, Gottlieb tables are cheaper and easier to obtain for them. Don't take my word for it, ask them yourself. There was never any plan to release EBD over CBW, despite what some want to believe.

I've advocated for a few EMs, but most of what has been mentioned in this thread have been SS tables. Eight Ball Deluxe, Fathom and Embryon are all SS. Why do you keep railing about EM? It's like you don't even know what you're talking about.

The conversation ventured into age ranges and what types of tables the majority play, hence the venture into EMs.

This forum came into existence because the facebook page was full of annoying people and not very good discussion.

If you haven't figured out, most of the people here are part of that page anyway, so we actually are part of those numbers, we just prefer to actually discuss things here.

That statement literally made no sense whatsoever. lol

So, according to you, the FB page is full of annoying people, but most of the people from here post over there?

Okeydokey.

I wonder what the 3 mystery tables will be for season 3
That's what everyone wants to know

- The Party Zone
- Safe Cracker
- Bram Stoker's Dracula

 

[Jeff Strong]

The forum wasn't created because of annoying people. It was created because having on-going discussions on Facebook is difficult since the posts get buried after a day or so. It wasn't an "us vs. them" mentality because we were the same people on both. Lately it seems there's a handful of the same people that complain about "the facebook crowd" or "the forum crowd". We're all pinball fans at the end of the day, so I don't see the point of the bickering, personally. Give peace a chance, heh.

Anyways, can we get back on topic please?

 

[lapaille]

- The Party Zone
- Safe Cracker
- Bram Stoker's Dracula

Well that would be great

 

[1moreastronaut]

I guess Diner.

What do I win?

 

[Kolchak357]

Safe Cracker, Diner, BS Drac would sure work for me.

 

[Kratos3]

Based on average age of pinball players, that would be the late 70s and early 80s games, with a dip into classic EMs

I would bet the average age of people buying tables(mostly on iOS and Android) is younger.

 

[WesReviews]

Seawitch.

 

[karl]

Just a few quick comments and I am done with the derailing. Sorry mods

DokkenRokken: You have some fair points. Just a couple of things:

I have nothing against EMs but The two machines I was hoping for is early 80' machines ergo SS not EMs.(5 years after Bally stoped making em's, in fact)

And I believe it to be pointless to count how many likes the facebook page has. (20 000 +?) My guess (not been following so much lately) is that there is maybe 100 persons or less that post regularly on Facebook and much more than that on here.

As Jeff pointed out though, there is no competition with the two places. I was just trying to say that since some of the Facebook posters are pretty loud and repetitive in their wishes, commands and complaints it can seam like a larger animal than it really is(at least here we have some reasonably sane mods to take care of us when we go ape )

Anyway, since you agree that we should have 1 or 2 older tables each season, we are really not that different in our opinions. Who am I to talk anyway. I have 12 DMD machines, not even one bloody SS machine (looking for Fathom or Centaur though)

Would also love to have WCS 94 in June or July (I have said it before) but I guess soccer is not that popular over there so I am not holding my breath for that one

 

[netizen]

I would bet the average age of people buying tables(mostly on iOS and Android) is younger.

That is info that is unavailable, and totally speculated unless FS releases some sort of demographics.
Simply using this forum as the sample base, which I know is skewed and slightly bias, we have players who start off as die hard "Nothing but DMD" and after a season are now expressing interest in earlier games due to design and rule differences.

TPA will become stale and quite unvaried if it's just a set range of pinball, as determined by the loudest voices.

 

[Kratos3]

That is info that is unavailable, and totally speculated unless FS releases some sort of demographics.
Simply using this forum as the sample base, which I know is skewed and slightly bias, we have players who start off as die hard "Nothing but DMD" and after a season are now expressing interest in earlier games due to design and rule differences.

TPA will become stale and quite unvaried if it's just a set range of pinball, as determined by the loudest voices.

I agree, we need variety. I'd like to see EBD just to see what the fuss is about.

This forum doesn't represent the majority of TPA buyers, IMO. It does represent the most passionate, but not the greatest percentage of buyers. At the end of the day, FS will go with what sells, which is more modern tables.