timeframe on dx11

[Larry]

Well there's a couple ways my mind is trying to sort this out...

THIS:

Or THIS:

Hmmmm...?!

Ok, I'll stop... I hereby restrict myself to my only pertinent post until this blows over

 

[Biff]

Pinball isn't about lighting and sounds .... la la la
Ok all you guys saying that should be perfectly happy with this then:

Seriously, TPA is trying to be a sim or a realistic recreation of some sorts.
So why not go for REALISTIC lighting. It has nothing to do with fancy effects like the current post processing bs. Just make it look real.
And they officially advertised it on steam as beeing done soon, one year ago.

+1 BTW, I used to play this game on my Gameboy back in the days.

I wish there was competition from another company that had access to the same licenses for classic tables -- a company with a more narrow focus and more attention to fit and finish.

So true, many people who defend FS often seem to forget that FS has exclusive rights. And honestly, I don't think they deserve exclusiveness.
Zen was trying to get the Bally license. Imagine what Zen could do with the Bally license. Did they really think about making realistic tables?

 

[Jeff Strong]

Seriously, TPA is trying to be a sim or a realistic recreation of some sorts.
So why not go for REALISTIC lighting. It has nothing to do with fancy effects like the current post processing bs. Just make it look real.
And they officially advertised it on steam as beeing done soon, one year ago.

That's the part that really stings.

 

[JPelter]

Imagine what Zen could do with the Bally license. Did they really think about making realistic tables?

As much as I like Zen's UI and a ton of other stuff about their app structure, their physics are so incredibly terrible I actually got a little disoriented just trying to picture TPA tables with Zen's engine. It would not be pretty.

 

[kimkom]

As much as I like Zen's UI and a ton of other stuff about their app structure, their physics are so incredibly terrible I actually got a little disoriented just trying to picture TPA tables with Zen's engine. It would not be pretty.

Completely agree.

The thing is though, their physics would probably be the only aspect Zen would have to improve. Well, perhaps they might have difficulty coming back into the real world! Their production values are clearly far superior though.

I appreciate everything FarSight has done with their licensing of real-world tables but they really need to progress and start taking TPA to the level we all know is possible, at least on PC.

The licenses deserve better.

 

[JPelter]

Completely agree.

The thing is though, their physics would probably be the only aspect Zen would have to improve. Well, perhaps they might have difficulty coming back into the real world! Their production values are clearly far superior though.

I appreciate everything FarSight has done with their licensing of real-world tables but they really need to progress and start taking TPA to the level we all know is possible, at least on PC.

The licenses deserve better.

The problem is they definitely don't have the resources to make extremely variable versions for different platforms. Getting a cabinet mode and dx11 support is about as much as we can hope for really. Maaaybe higher res textures down the line, which would be really nice. I doubt severely better physics are in the cards over the lifetime of the game since the phones can't handle it.

 

[Shaneus]

That's the part that really stings.

I don't remember exactly seeing that, but man, if it did... yeah, that's not a good look and does really hurt.

 

[Biff]

As much as I like Zen's UI and a ton of other stuff about their app structure, their physics are so incredibly terrible I actually got a little disoriented just trying to picture TPA tables with Zen's engine. It would not be pretty.

Well I didn't have TPA with ZENs physics in mind.
Zen Pinball is not a simulation. I think Zen Studios could create a more realistic physics engine for a simulation.

 

[swift]

The problem is they definitely don't have the resources to make extremely variable versions for different platforms. Getting a cabinet mode and dx11 support is about as much as we can hope for really. Maaaybe higher res textures down the line, which would be really nice. I doubt severely better physics are in the cards over the lifetime of the game since the phones can't handle it.

judging by youtube videos, i think the physics are already better on pc than on mobile, and certainly better than on the ghostbusters table.

 

[JPelter]

judging by youtube videos, i think the physics are already better on pc than on mobile, and certainly better than on the ghostbusters table.

The physics system is supposed to be the same. I think variable framerates and controls make up the difference in actual gameplay. And don't get me wrong there's definitely a difference even between PC and the consoles.

 

[superballs]

I've said this before but it always comes down to this: If you want to play good recreations of tables TPA is the only game in town. And when things work it's incredibly good. Someone might say what about VP and such; the thing is it's incredibly difficult for anyone who isn't really computer smart to set up, and (no offense to anyone) a vast majority of the tables have serious serious issues with them. Even the physics, while really good as things go aren't quite up to par with TPA from what I've seen. If I vote with my wallet I'll vote for Farsight. Things may move at a glacial pace but what we have is really pretty good, and things do progress eventually.

VP is getting better, and the install is really only complicated if you want to use the cabinet features and multi-monitor. Though TPA has a lot more consistent quality, in general (some tables are not very well done). In VP, outside of creating tables yourself, you are at the mercy of the table author's talents. Some are insanely talented, others not so talented. Then you are at the mercy of the quality of the assets that the author has access to, some tables are sharper than a Ginsu, others are muddy blurry messes. The physics tweaking is all over the place, some for the better and some for the worse, as there is no standard to adhere to.

The new physics are phenominal though, and the DX9 lighting does show up TPA's model. Honestly, I think that rather than a move to DX11, they could better utilize DX9 lighting capabilities, along with the capabilities of the last gen consoles. It would at least help things until they can dedicate the resources to DX11, and hopefully be less work than a complete overhaul.

Superballs, I don't think it's just the lack of DX11, it's the lack of progress and support all round.

As a PC player, I would like to at least see some progress on the things we were told were coming a long time ago. DX11 was imminent in January, emulation of some of the older tables was before that, a new UI was promised (there are issues with the current one at high resolutions), cabinet support, major bug fixes, and so on...

After a recent update, I now no longer have access to the T2 table I paid for (which I supported through it's Kickstarter). Mike suggested contacting FarSight support but after two weeks, I've still had no reply.

A lot of people (I am one) have been asking for better quality textures too. They may be fit for mobile but on a 21st century PC, I'm afraid they just don't cut it. Integration of portrait mode into the configuration utility should, in my opinion, also be a priority as having users fiddling around in the display drivers for this long isn't great.

If none of these issues 'matter' when playing digital pinball, we'd probably all still be playing Pinball Fantasies on the Amiga.

On a positive note, it's good that we have the option to purchase the latest tables every month. Personally speaking though, I really have no interest in any DLC tables until there is progress on the issues I've mentioned above.

Unfortunately, it all adds up to a lot of agitated supporters of TPA on PC. And people will vote with their wallets.

Other than the T2 issue, which I would be pretty PO'd about, I still think this is a case of mountains from molehills.
At least on PC we do have a portrait option, which with a locked view 3 is generally very close to a cabinet view, missing only the backglass.
DX11 lighting, yes I want it, or at least the improvements I mentioned above, but the game itself is still fundamentally sound and it's the game that was advertised. They expected delivery of features on a timeline but weren't able to adhere to that. Yes this is pretty typical of FS, but I'd personally rather they be ambitious and fail than be unambitious and succeed. I have faith these will come, even if I don't have faith that they will come in a timely fashion. Problem is, if their fanbase abandons the platform then they have no reason to spend time on additional features. While I have full faith that you and Jeff would drop mad cash on all the content once these are delivered, I'm also pretty sure that most people who are like "blah blah this and then I'll buy everything" are generally just blowhards...most...not all. In general, the PC is one of the best supported platforms, day one updates and all, beyond the mobile platforms it IS the best supported platform.

The problem is they definitely don't have the resources to make extremely variable versions for different platforms. Getting a cabinet mode and dx11 support is about as much as we can hope for really. Maaaybe higher res textures down the line, which would be really nice. I doubt severely better physics are in the cards over the lifetime of the game since the phones can't handle it.

From what I've seen, the Zaccaria app begs to differ. In fact, for the most part, the ball behaves in a not-too-bad fashion. Farsight's flippers are terrible and need to be overhauled.

Well I didn't have TPA with ZENs physics in mind.
Zen Pinball is not a simulation. I think Zen Studios could create a more realistic physics engine for a simulation.

I think Zen would be capable of adjusting the physics model to create a more refined and realistic experience than they currently offer.

 

[Jeff Strong]

In general, the PC is one of the best supported platforms, day one updates and all, beyond the mobile platforms it IS the best supported platform.

In terms of new DLC, yes...but that's not the type of support we're talking about here. Beyond DX11 and cab support, we don't even have tournaments on PC yet, which is something the PS3 has had for ages.

It has been nice to see a few bug fixes on older tables, but surely it's past time for them to bring in some new features that were indeed advertised from the launch as "coming soon", instead of only giving us new tables and expecting us to forget. It just seems like a cold way to treat their PC customers. It'd be a different story if they never showcased these features, but a lot of folks supported the PC version early on because we were told these things were just over the horizon...a year ago. I realize PC isn't their biggest market, but they said the initial sales were favorable, and they could've been even better if we saw more than just DLC over the past year.

The most frustrating part for me is that TPA could have a really strong PC community, but as it turned out, most of the posts about PC TPA around the pinball interwebz (VP, Pinside, etc.) are from guys that are pretty jaded about the PC version. I just can't help but think that Farsight blew a big opportunity to get the PC version really established among PC pinheads as their go-to pinball game of choice.

But of course it's not too late...

 

[pm1109]

Come on its nearly Christmas.Where is it.

 

[kimkom]

The most frustrating part for me is that TPA could have a really strong PC community, but as it turned out, most of the posts about PC TPA around the pinball interwebz (VP, Pinside, etc.) are from guys that are pretty jaded about the PC version. I just can't help but think that Farsight blew a big opportunity to get the PC version really established among pinheads as their go-to pinball game of choice.

But of course it's not too late...

This is exactly the way I see it. Also the TPA platform itself could, with relatively small investment, be the best in class by a long way. The potential is there! But for now, I have become one supporter who has become extremely jaded with TPA.

Right now my new love is VP. The work that has gone into it over the last year or so is blowing TPA right out of the water.

 

[Pete]

I was disappointed with the PS4 version personally as the materials still don't look right. I would have thought with modern shaders they could do material simulation so it looks close to photo realistic.

So if it ends up just being a port of Xbox One lighting (which ultimately I expect to be just a PS4 port) it will be an improvement but still somewhat disappointing for something supposedly simulating real machines.

Even if for some reason the consoles cannot do that level of simulation, PC should be able to.

If full dx11 is implemented, they have the ability to now use "Materials Properties"

material properties effect light properties.

Each object in a scene can be assigned material properties which determines how the object is rendered.

rubber/metal/liquid whatever the need be it can be applied to a texture and tweaked how it needs to be.

it's all in this handy dandy dx11 orientation pamphlet buried between all the really hard to understand coding examples:
http://3dgep.com/texturing-lighting-directx-11/

 

[Pete]

oh and let me just throw in that all nvidia mobile processors from here on fully support dx11, and it has been confirmed dx11 support will not be nvidia exclusive, so basically every android and apple flagship is going to be able to use this as well... so farsights got a whole lot of work to do if they want this up to date on everything

 

[JPelter]

oh and let me just throw in that all nvidia mobile processors from here on fully support dx11, and it has been confirmed dx11 support will not be nvidia exclusive, so basically every android and apple flagship is going to be able to use this as well... so farsights got a whole lot of work to do if they want this up to date on everything

They support mobile devices like ten generations back. I wouldn't expect DX11 on mobile devices for another three to four years, and that's even assuming the processor can handle both DX11 lighting and the ROM emulation.

 

[Pete]

as of right now the nvidia shield tablet and the nexus 9 (coming out later this month) can definitely handle the new lighting tech. the tegra k1 has about as much power as a ps3 only unlike a ps3 it has the ability to use dx11. games are already taking advantage of the dx11 lighting and working great. the nvidia k2 processor will be released around june of 2015 and will push it even further. When k2 comes out the amount of power in the k1 will be in mid-range devices and the year after that low end devices will have the power of a k1 while the higher end devices are almost as good as the new ps4. Pinball arcade doesn't even need the full power of a ps4 to look as good as it does on ps4. TPA isn't exactly taxing all the power out of your ps4 and pushing it to it's limits. the ps4 version obviously does not use 100% of the systems resources because well... it's a pinball table... not a giant city with people and cars walking all over and explosions and fast car chases through 1000's and 1000's of textured objects. Anyways in 2-3 years time everything but the lowest end phones will run this.

 

[Mike Reitmeyer]

as of right now the nvidia shield tablet and the nexus 9 (coming out later this month) can definitely handle the new lighting tech. the tegra k1 has about as much power as a ps3 only unlike a ps3 it has the ability to use dx11. games are already taking advantage of the dx11 lighting and working great. the nvidia k2 processor will be released around june of 2015 and will push it even further. When k2 comes out the amount of power in the k1 will be in mid-range devices and the year after that low end devices will have the power of a k1 while the higher end devices are almost as good as the new ps4. Pinball arcade doesn't even need the full power of a ps4 to look as good as it does on ps4. TPA isn't exactly taxing all the power out of your ps4 and pushing it to it's limits. the ps4 version obviously does not use 100% of the systems resources because well... it's a pinball table... not a giant city with people and cars walking all over and explosions and fast car chases through 1000's and 1000's of textured objects. Anyways in 2-3 years time everything but the lowest end phones will run this.

Pinball actually is more taxing than you would think. Everything you look at is within a few feet. Most games hide low rez textures because you don't stand 3 feet away from stuff. They can also occlude parts of the environment by good level design. There isn't much you can occlude in Pinball.

 

[kimkom]

Pinball actually is more taxing than you would think. Everything you look at is within a few feet. Most games hide low rez textures because you don't stand 3 feet away from stuff. They can also occlude parts of the environment by good level design. There isn't much you can occlude in Pinball.

Mike, please see your PMs. Especially the second one I sent today!