Top 5-10 Pinballs every made - Pro talk

[jonesjb]

So what's the concensus? I think we should include Shadow in the top 10. Anyone else on board?

 

[PET3R]

Thanks a million jonesjb. That's really amazing stuff there. The diagram is an excellent idea. Wish we had 1 for every single one of our top 10 tables discussed. Would be very useful for our analysis.

How easy/difficult it is to start the multiballs and is the difficulty getting any harder on later multiballs ? You say there are different tactics but from the rules and diagram it seems that multiballs are the best way for high scores. Can you please explain why concentrating purely on mutliballs is not the best strategy and why would you want to play other features of the table ? To me it still seems that the scenes are not worth playing. Specially when compared to mutliballs and final wizard mode. Maybe just starting them up and timing them out.

TZ - Have been playing it a lot in the past few days and I agree it should be above the TAF yeehey (told you I just need to play more). I think the main difference between these two is the pay off for the modes. While in TZ you can get anything up to 100m+ for a mode (specially clocks) and multiball if played well, in TAF it is not worth concentrating on the modes as you won't get much more than when not focusing on them. Lightning up the chair is too easy and therefore speeding up towards wizard and randomly getting points for the rooms as you progress seems the way to success. It is also much less risky compared to playing the modes as all you doing are 2 same shots (ramp + chair). I know it has been mentioned that the magnets are not very stonrg IRL but I still think I would prefer the TAF without them.

While playing TZ and TAF I noticed something new that has not been discussed here before - the shots. I am still thinking whether it is good for anything to do separate research on shots, but I am sure this definitely affects the gameplay and top 10. There are 2 categories here.

a) how good shots are - feel good shots - MM, SS, TAF, TZ, WW ramps. MM, SS, AFM, TOM - toys (Castle, crate, Sacuer, Trunk). This is where I struggle with MB - FOR ME there is no single shot that would feel good apart from the ramps on the very right and second from the left.

b) number of shots you can make from the flipper (observation from TZ) - in AFM you can use your right flipper to hit - 3 ramps on the left, Saucer, Backflip to the scoop, 5 standing targets of the Martian, 3 standing targets of the shield. During the whole game you use all the shots and none of them feels too dangerous. in TZ top two flippers are used for only 1 shot. Bottom right flipper is used mostly for 1 ramp, the other flipper has more available shots, but half of them feel unsafe to do. Therefore you will end up using each of the flippers for 1 or maximum 2 shots. Same applies to TAF. I am not saying this is bad, but definitely it is very different experience and adds to that feel good moment as many times you can be less accurate. I never have problem hitting ramps in TZ, but it can be challange in AFM - especially when it comes to raised ramps - cow and other one on the opposite side. MM and MB have very similar layout but while in MM it is a joy to hit ramps, I have different experience in MB.

RBioN - I need your comments. Why should we keep this in top 10 ? Confusing rules, tons of stuff you don't even care about, Atlantis does not seem to be worthy achieving as the whole strategy comes to 2x tour (all continents). I still need to play more to be able to judge better.

 

[vikingerik]

a) how good shots are - feel good shots - This is where I struggle with MB - FOR ME there is no single shot that would feel good apart from the ramps on the very right and second from the left.

RBioN - I need your comments. Why should we keep this in top 10 ? Confusing rules, tons of stuff you don't even care about, Atlantis does not seem to be worthy achieving as the whole strategy comes to 2x tour (all continents). I still need to play more to be able to judge better.

Again, you are still judging the TPA implementations and not the games as they are on real machines. I agree that MB's tuning feels a bit off in TPA, the ramps and scoop feel like you're shooting at the wrong angles. But that's got nothing to do with the real machine. A real MB feels just as good as AFM or MM on the ramps. T2 in TPA has this same problem (and actually the same ramp geometry as MB.)

And on Ripley's, you do care about all that other stuff on a real table. The 2x tour strategy only dominates in TPA when hourlong games rack up 200M of continent total. On a real machine, you tour once or twice for maybe 20M, and at that level all the other stuff like the jewel matrix and jackpots do matter.

Do you want to reconsider the premise of this list -- do you want to rank the tables as they are in TPA rather than the real thing? I get the sense that you really can't judge the real machines properly yourself for lack of experience with them. (And particularly the tables that aren't in TPA.)

 

[Fungi]

I agree that MB's tuning feels a bit off in TPA, the ramps and scoop feel like you're shooting at the wrong angles.

THAT'S IT! I was wondering why I can't get into MB as much as everyone else.

 

[PET3R]

Do you want to reconsider the premise of this list -- do you want to rank the tables as they are in TPA rather than the real thing? I get the sense that you really can't judge the real machines properly yourself for lack of experience with them. (And particularly the tables that aren't in TPA.)

I am very happy you raised this question. It makes more sense to rank the tables as they are in TPA, but my answer is no. I want to stick to original topic and rate them as they are in real life. You are absolutely right I can't judge the real machines as I have 0% experience with them and this is why originally I was supposed to be here only as a moderator. I expected many more pro players to come here and comment but that did not happen. If I did not contribute with my analysis, observations and raised questions on a regular basis, this thread would die - as we had chance to witness this 1-2 weeks ago.

I am not the right person to be in charge for a ranking decisions and therefore I would like to ask you whether you could take this responsibility please ? You are the one who comments here regularly with THE MOST VALID POINTS !!! I always look forward to your posts as they go straight to the point and I always learn a lot from them. This is actually what I expected the most from this thread - that we all discover, realize and learn new things about the tables we did not know about before. And I think we are succeeding so far. We are collecting some really great materials here, making deep analysis and learning about the differences between TPA and IRL. I know we would learn much more if more pro players were willing to join our discussion and some were not steering off the topic. I still hope inside my heart that it will happen and that one day even Tarek Oberdieck him self will post some really good stuff in here.

I will still continue contributing heavily in this thread with my analysis, observations and raising questions to keep this thread and discussion alive.
But before me writing more, could I ask you vikingerik to write down top 10 for us the way you would do it ? Or actually as I am quite interested to see, could you write a ranking made up of all of these tables:

AFM, MM, TZ, MB, STTNG, TAF, CV, CC RBION, SS
The shadow, Indiana Jones, Metallica, AC/DC, LOTR, SPP, CFTBL, Star Trek (Stern)

Can you also let me know whether any of these tables are worth mentioning:
Spider Man, Tron, Iron Man, Revenge from Mars, Tales from the Crypt, Judge Dredd, Congo, Big bang bar,World cup soccer, Mustang, Kiss, Walking Dead

 

[jonesjb]

Pet3r, regarding Shadow. The multiballs and battlefield become more difficult each time you finish them. So it isn't a case of play for multi and repeat. The risk/reward is accounted for. They get progressively harder, but it isn't like White Water where it becomes practically impossible:

-The Khan multiball becomes timed, so if you take too long hitting the side pocket you lose the opportunity.
-Shadow multiball (where you hit the wall to activate the lock) requires one more hit to activate lock each time you get it.
-The battle field (breakout table) require additional hits to lower the drop target, then once you get up top, you need to hit incrementally more targets to defeat Khan.

As for the modes, you wouldn't want to avoid them as then you couldn't get final battle. Could you time them out? Yes. And some modes score less than others. However you can stack the modes with multiball and the battlefield, this means that you don't have to choose multiball against modes. Generally you can get from $50MM to $150MM per mode so yes you could time them out, but you'd be missing out on points. And there are some strategies for maximizing score:

There is a Farley mode (where you have to hit lots of shots to beat up a villain from the movie), strategically choose and activate this one before hitting the battlefield (with rapid shots in the breakout table), and you will defeat him and rack up the points.
Start the mode, then start multiball to get extra balls to help you complete.

Pet3r, what are the criteria by you assess if a mode can be timed out? Can't pretty much most modes be timed out? I understand ones like in STTNG, where it contributes to the final score, but isn't it just a score thing? What tables have good modes that timing out is of little use vs ones that you think are not implemented properly and encourage timing out?

I hear that Congo has a rather fun and complex rule set but I'm not familiar with it much. If anyone can offer insight, I'd be curious.

 

[PET3R]

Pet3r, regarding Shadow. The multiballs and battlefield become more difficult each time you finish them. So it isn't a case of play for multi and repeat. The risk/reward is accounted for. They get progressively harder, but it isn't like White Water where it becomes practically impossible:

Pet3r, what are the criteria by you assess if a mode can be timed out? Can't pretty much most modes be timed out? I understand ones like in STTNG, where it contributes to the final score, but isn't it just a score thing? What tables have good modes that timing out is of little use vs ones that you think are not implemented properly and encourage timing out?

I really do hope The Shadow will come to TPA soon as it really sounds to be top 10 table and I can't wait to be able to try it properly. In meantime let's see at what rank will vikingerik place this table in our top 10. You say you can get up to 150m from a single mode but when I read the rules all the numbers seem to add up to 60m. 30m for shots + 30 for shooting into start mode. Could you please break down a scoring of individual modes for me please ? sorry to be a pain. 150m is worth playing for but 60m seemed not enough compared to multiballs and other stuff.

Modes:

a) the way is should be - you can't achieve wizard or it will be worth very little if you choose to time them out: STTNG, MB, RBION, Star Trek (stern), If I understand well in AC/DC you need 8 successful shots to progress to the next song.

b) games where modes have a very good pay off - TZ, The Shadow, some of the TOM modes. (even if wizard mode is perfectly balanced and not being the centre point of the game, there is still issue of you wanting to time out the mode, especially if you are very close to reaching the wizard mode. I think some of these games might be better off without wizard mode where the modes would be the only and the biggest source of points. I may be wrong but does Judge Dredd do something like this ? How does Indiana Jones and TFTC work ?) I prefer much more group a)

c) you are better off not playing them - TAF, TOM

I am also questioning stacking of the modes. In TAF it allows you to go quicker towards wizard which hurts the table even more and discourages you from playing the modes. In fact, I would play many modes or at least made a few shots in some of them if I had no choice starting up another one along. I think the TAF would be much better this way. I don't think it would be really worth waiting to time out all the modes just to reach wizard and geting those 50m.
There is another problem of stacking the modes in MB. While it is ok to stack modes like bride and dracula, the problem arises when you are stacking the modes with frank or Monster Bash as the game becomes 10x easier and makes it a key to success. I had lot of games where I had problem completing many of the monsters and then there have been games where I had no instruments lit but during Monster Bash I would suddenly complete 3-4 instruments, not even knowing how I did it. It seems like the stacking is mandatory in this game if you want to reach Monsters of Rock. But this might be because of implementation of TPA that is different from the real life (the ramps issues mentioned by vikingerik). I would like to hear from vikingerik whether IRL you also need to stack bride and multiball together to be able to finish the bride. I was also thinking, if not having a timer for the modes or the progress not being reset would make it a better game ? What do you think ?

 

[jonesjb]

Vikingerik, have you played Shadow? What are your thoughts? Deserving of top 10?

Good point about stacking of the modes. If a mode does not have a large enough pay out, you definitely can just breeze through them and ignore (as per TAF). Road show is a fun game, but one where the modes really are ignored when I play (I still want to go through the modes, but the payoff is too low). I time out Road Show more than any other game I think.

FYI, with Shadow, the modes can't be stacked with other modes, but can be played along with multiball. I think this is the issue on games like TAF... If there is stacking (and there isn't some creative ways to stack, affecting gameplay) this tends to get people to just drive through, and the modes become a means to an end (irrespective of the scoring).

Regarding the Shadow modes, running from memory, here are some estimates of how much is possible (the scoring is based on how well you do, I've included the approximate maximums):


Punish The Guilty: $60MM, probably the lowest scoring mode.
Farley Claymore: $99MM+
Duel Of Wills: $80MM, with extra Ball Opportunity
The Beryllium Sphere: $120MM
Escape Underwater Doom: If you are fast and combo this, you can get $130MM-$150MM. This is a countdown score, but once you get it, it keeps going and can be re-obtained until it ends (or you hit 5 targets I think). It's not a simple 30MM countdown (The game DOES offer a simple $30MM countdown, by completing the Mongul targets and hitting the orbit).
Discover Hotel Monolith:$130MM (approx) per round, but this can go on and on until you lose a ball. You enter the hotel for 40MM, then have to hit the 5 or 6 arrows which is about $10MM+ each, then once you complete, I think there is a $30MM reward and the arrows relight.

 

[jonesjb]

It looks like Congo may be a contender too. I haven't played the game for years. But in terms of scoring, there are no modes to time out. The game has multiple accomplishments to achieve as you make your way across the map. Multiballs get progressively harder, with higher scoring jackpots. The game progresses naturally is set up as a choose your own adventure as you make your way across the map. There is no one thing that dominates scoring. It's very balanced... The better and longer you play, the higher your score will be.

 

[Slam23]

Now do one for WOZ. I dare you.

Funny thing is that WOZ itself has it as a feature when you "pause" the game. It displays onscreen how far you are within modes and towards bigger steps towards wizard mode. Such a flowchart can be found here in any case: http://rvapinball.org/2014/06/24/woz-rule-flowchart-2/

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

Funny thing is that WOZ itself has it as a feature when you "pause" the game. It displays onscreen how far you are within modes and towards bigger steps towards wizard mode. Such a flowchart can be found here in any case: http://rvapinball.org/2014/06/24/woz-rule-flowchart-2/

I know there's one in the manual too, of a sort. So yes I'm aware it's already been done. Just wondering if anyone can do "better"

 

[Gus]

Why would you time-out the TAF modes? Seance, Tunnel hunt, Quick mb and Thing mb are worth about 30 mill each, compared to 50 mill for Tour the mansion. Mamushka and especially Hit cousin It can give 10-15 mill each just by continuing to play normally. The modes doesn't lock out progress towards Tour the mansion or the other scoring staples - mill plus, 5xgraveyard etc. I always play all modes on TAF except Raise the Dead as I never aim for the bumpers, but if the ball ends up there anyway it's a nice bonus.

In TPA it's absolutely not worth playing the modes, as the bonus from mansion rooms is the only way to get a competitive score, but that's not the case on a real table. I don't think anyone is collecting over 200 rooms in one game.

 

[PET3R]

Why would you time-out the TAF modes? Seance, Tunnel hunt, Quick mb and Thing mb are worth about 30 mill each, compared to 50 mill for Tour the mansion. Mamushka and especially Hit cousin It can give 10-15 mill each just by continuing to play normally. The modes doesn't lock out progress towards Tour the mansion or the other scoring staples - mill plus, 5xgraveyard etc. I always play all modes on TAF except Raise the Dead as I never aim for the bumpers, but if the ball ends up there anyway it's a nice bonus.

In TPA it's absolutely not worth playing the modes, as the bonus from mansion rooms is the only way to get a competitive score, but that's not the case on a real table. I don't think anyone is collecting over 200 rooms in one game.

Danger of loosing the ball. Seance has magnets on and Tunnel hunt has 1 easy shot (chair), 1 medium difficulty shot (bookcase) and 1 hazard shot (swamp). So I usually go for 5 or 15m. You are very right when you say: "Mamushka and especially Hit cousin It can give 10-15 mill each just by continuing to play normally."
That means not even you are concentrating on these 2 modes, but rather continue playing normally as if they were not even there. And once again as you said Raise the Dead is not worth playing as we do not shoot the bumpers usually.

 

[vikingerik]

I expected many more pro players to come here and comment but that did not happen.

This forum is a small rural village of the pinball community. The big discussions and real pro players are on Pinside and rec.games.pinball.

I am not the right person to be in charge for a ranking decisions and therefore I would like to ask you whether you could take this responsibility please ?

Thanks for your esteem, but I'll pass. I hold my own opinions too strongly and wouldn't give proper balance to other input. Besides, we already have the ipdb.org rankings that come from a much bigger community than this little forum. I've never been quite sure what this thread is trying to accomplish that IPDB doesn't already.

But before me writing more, could I ask you vikingerik to write down top 10 for us the way you would do it ? Or actually as I am quite interested to see, could you write a ranking made up of all of these tables:

I could, but we still need to specify exactly what we're ranking. Your original premise was the best skill testing tables. That is not the same thing as the most fun tables to play, or the most interesting rules, or the best audiovisual package, or the ones you spend the most time on, or the ones you'd like to own, or some platonic ideal combining all of the above. We've had a lot of opinions along all of these axes.

Can you also let me know whether any of these tables are worth mentioning:
Spider Man, Tron, Iron Man, Revenge from Mars, Tales from the Crypt, Judge Dredd, Congo, Big bang bar,World cup soccer, Mustang, Kiss, Walking Dead

Yes to Spider-Man and RFM. Both might get crowded out of a top 10 but they're at least worth mentioning. I have little experience with any of the others. I've played Tron, Iron Man, Dredd, Big Bang Bar, and Mustang, but only a very few games of each.

 

[vikingerik]

Vikingerik, have you played Shadow? What are your thoughts? Deserving of top 10?

Some, not a lot, maybe 15 or 20 games. I don't know the rules all that well. It seems good, but top 10 is a high bar to clear with a lot of competition. It's certainly worthy for TPA, at least. I'm generally not a fan of mini-playfield games, always seems like more feel-bad moments when you lose than fun for winning. (The worst game in this area is Family Guy, with an entire major multiball that depends on clearing a stupid mini-game.)

 

[jonesjb]

Oh well, looks like this topic has lost direction and has fallen flat on its face!

 

[PET3R]

Oh well, looks like this topic has lost direction and has fallen flat on its face!

No it did not. I will write soon to steer it back on track. But it seems to me that everyone wants this topic to die. I will be back soon

 

[jonesjb]

Not me, I've been enjoying the topic and would prefer to keep it going!

 

[PET3R]

Not me, I've been enjoying the topic and would prefer to keep it going!

In that case don't write that this topic has fallen flat on its face, because it did not !!!

 

[jonesjb]

But no one else is posting!