Top 5-10 Pinballs every made - Pro talk

[Locksley]

I've been reading this thread on and off, wouldn't say I read every post nor read most post with great concentration taking notes and pondering them on the tram on my way to work; but I have enjoyed this thread tremendously and think it is one of the most interesting topics lately here on TPAfans.

Even though your premise is real tables I wouldn't mind seeing you make pointers to both and split it somewhat. For someone who has not played a table it is of great interest to know why TPA stumbles in it's portray of the original. But even though it is geared towards real tables it does make points toward TPA since it tries to recreate them digitally.

Spiderman has had some spotlight here lately; switch3flip loves it and you yourself played it recently. I wasn't in the mood when I played it I guess; I went to a place to play some other tables and they had thrown them all out - put a damper on my already low spirit.

And during PAPA tv playing Johnny Mnemonic they kinda alluded to that it is a great tournament table as long as you make the spinner really slow and stiff. Never played that table though.

When there is an exploit easily reached that usually breaks a game; but if you can plug it within the settings or modify the table a little, how will that change perception of the table?`

Actually I am just posting to show jonesjb that there is someone else posting

 

[invitro]

For someone who has not played a table it is of great interest to know why TPA stumbles in it's portray of the original.

I think the deficits in TPA tables compared to the real ones are more alike among tables than particular to different tables. All TPA tables have these problems, in my order of importance:

- On TPA tables, center shots are much harder, and far-left and -right shots, and severe backhands, are much easier, than on the real thing. I don't think anyone has identified just why this is. I've been trying recently, and I think maybe (a) the ball moves past the flipper on inlane returns much faster than it should, and (b) the tables that tell where your ball will go after a flip are just poorly guessed at (or tuned).

- Nudging doesn't match up: you shouldn't be able to nudge a downward-moving ball in the center of the playfield a few inches to the left or right by the time it hits the flipper. On the other hand, I don't think any real (correctly-configued) machine tilts if you give two gentle nudges within five seconds, like most pre-1984 TPA tables do on at least PC/keyboard.

- It's rare for a real machine's kickouts to be railroads, but it does happen, especially if a machine isn't brand new, so this difference is I think overstated. As an example, I've played several TZ's whose Slot Machine kickout works about the same as TPA's: maybe not 100% catches, but 80%. It's still a noticeable difference.

 

[PET3R]

jonesjb - I have been trying more the Shadow on Vp as well as watched some more videos. The more attention I give to Shadow the less I like that mini playfield. Also I am still unsure of the modes that can be timed out. Recently released Frankenstein on TPA does the modes much better. They are not easy to start, they award quite good points and they encourage you to finish them as you can be awarded 100m if you finish them later. I just wish Frankenstein would be just like RBION where you can't play Atlantis without collecting the letters.

Locksley - Thank you for your great support, it is really nice to hear that people actually do enjoy this topic and reading it even if they don't post in here.

You: "When there is an exploit easily reached that usually breaks a game; but if you can plug it within the settings or modify the table a little, how will that change perception of the table?"

That is a very interesting question and we might discuss this at the later stage but for now I think it can really complicate our already complicated thread, therefore I would not bring this here just yet. There are lot of tables which can become really great tables if some code or slight features are changed. So let's stick to factory product and settings for now.

 

[PET3R]

vikingerik

"we already have the ipdb.org rankings that come from a much bigger community than this little forum. I've never been quite sure what this thread is trying to accomplish that IPDB doesn't already."

Both pinside and IPDB ratings are not accomplishing our topic as the ratings can be submitted by anyone. Therefore you will find 2.TOM, 6.TOTAM, 9.WW, 10.CFTBL - tables that we have thrown out of top 10 due to some serious flaws as well as 13.AFM, 16.LOTR, 17.Spiderman - tables we are considering as our top 10 material.

TOTAM is higher than AFM, LOTR, Spiderman. If you look at some comments you will find this. "I have been playing this table in a busy pub and people have been constantly bumping into me, I did not enjoy this at all. Score = 3" or "TOTAM is really great looking pinball with an amazing lamp spinning. Score = 10" "It's really fun shooting from the cannon on T2, this must be the best pinball ever. Score =10. Btw - this is the only pinball I have ever played.

 

[PET3R]

vikingerik

"I could, but we still need to specify exactly what we're ranking. Your original premise was the best skill testing tables. That is not the same thing as the most fun tables to play, or the most interesting rules, or the best audiovisual package, or the ones you spend the most time on, or the ones you'd like to own, or some platonic ideal combining all of the above. We've had a lot of opinions along all of these axes."

The perfect table will have deep, clear and very interesting rules. It will have great shots, (combination of feel good shots and challenging shots) and will use every part of the table. It will test your skill. All this combined will make you spend the most time on the table and becomes a fun challenge which will want you to own the table. It all comes hand in hand, and one affects the other. Easy or simple tables has tendency to start boring you after a while and you moving on to something else. Therefore you would not want to own this table and it would probably stop being fun as you would want something more.

 

[PET3R]

vikingerik - "The big discussions and real pro players are on Pinside and rec.games.pinball."

Thank you for pointing this out. I might create one thread there in the future but for now I am too busy keeping up with this one.

I feel I should apologize for using word "pro". I know many of you holding back not writing in this thread because you are not pro players. What I really had on my mind was the players who have good experience in tables and rules in TPA but much more importantly IRL. I did not want this thread to be spammed with people writing irrelevant stuff and those who played table once or twice. I did not want to hear about the quality of the lamp in TOTAM and therefore were looking for the players who will really talk from the rules and gameplay point of view. I did not want the topic to be steered the wrong direction, but instead we ended up with not many players writing on the post.

Please everyone, no matter whether you are pro player or not, feel free to comment but please make sure that what you write comes to the point. Write valid points, it is a big advantage if you have good experience about the table you are going to comment on or if it is your favourite table, but even if not you might have notice something that none of us did. Just make sure you understand the topic and what you write is going to help.

 

[jonesjb]

Pet3r, my understanding of this topic (in terms of rating) is that these are the top 10 tables for assessing skill level and balanced scoring (e.g. a person with a higher score is likely to be the better player vs they just got lucky, or exploited the rules). Good point for some of the top 10 on ipdb,as many don't have this balance to test skill level.

 

[jonesjb]

Also regarding Shadow, the battlefield still provides ample scoring. As to whether it is fun or not, that's really a subjective decision I guess.

 

[WhiteChocolate]

if i may, PET3R i think the "goalposts" moved a bit during the thread; i initially thought the thought(s) were specifically directed towards rules/scoring, without too much focus on "playability" or layout? maybe, perhaps? :0 but oh well, it was always a bit nebulous in the first place i thought... i take it the list is primarily "fair" rules and scoring, then (say halfway-down in the consideration process) would be the actual table/ballplay. but, it's not like i've stopped reading... i doubt anyone else has too! maybe just some standing by the sidelines wondering exactly what aspect is being debated at the current moment... ;0

also though, for what it's worth, it -is- about a "top ten" or so list, and as the list narrows (as it had already long ago), debate over such tables will naturally dry up. sooo, just sayin'... if you're pursuing a sort of judgement-like "ruling" on a set of tables, eventually the court will reach a final decision!

for what it's worth, the thread has made me reassess and replay "medieval" more than i had before - got a new appreciation for it, in a big way! and also, whitewater - although that's kinda a "special case;" i usually set my ball to the "zebra-stripe" or white ball to play best on most tables - it's usually difficult to see the default silver ball on the playfield, either on iOS or ps3 on my old tv - to provide the best contrast between the ball and the background/table. on whitewater, i can't seem to find a good ball texture to choose to make it feel like i'm getting a fair chance to play it - no matter the ball texture, i can so easily lose sight on the ball! and that table's a fast one, so i like what it's like; i just can't play it "well" yet on tpa to "get my fun" from it. it's certainly fun enough when i feel i have enough "eye-to-ball" play going on, but as far as tpa, it's tough play! sometimes that ball's just zipped right past me and i think, "ohh, i never even -saw- that before i had a chance to catch it!"

i can imagine that on the real-life table, it's pretty gosh-darn fun; seems like tpa can make the ball go much faster more often than you see for real!

 

[vikingerik]

Both pinside and IPDB ratings are not accomplishing our topic as the ratings can be submitted by anyone.

So what you really want in this thread is someone to decide what opinions are important enough to include and which aren't. I don't think I want to be a judge of that.

The perfect table will have deep, clear and very interesting rules. It will have great shots, (combination of feel good shots and challenging shots) and will use every part of the table. It will test your skill. All this combined will make you spend the most time on the table and becomes a fun challenge which will want you to own the table. It all comes hand in hand, and one affects the other. Easy or simple tables has tendency to start boring you after a while and you moving on to something else. Therefore you would not want to own this table and it would probably stop being fun as you would want something more.

There's still some conflict in these directions. The most fun tables to play on location aren't the same as I'd want to own. Whitewater, Creature, and TOTAN are highly rated on IPDB because they are indeed a lot of fun to play, even though the problems in the balance department would rob them of long-term interest to own, but most IPDB voters don't really care about that.

My own lists would go something like this:

Top 5: Monster Bash, Attack from Mars, Lord of the Rings, Simpsons Pinball Party, Twilight Zone

Top 10: Cirqus Voltaire, Revenge from Mars, STTNG, Addams, Cactus Canyon

Just miss: Scared Stiff, No Good Gofers, Spider-Man, Pirates of the Caribbean, Monopoly

Notable top games that I don't personally have enough experience with to rate properly: Shadow, Indiana Jones, Judge Dredd, Wizard of Oz, World Cup Soccer

Personal favorites that I always find lots of fun, but objectively probably aren't quite deep enough to make top 10: Jack*Bot, No Fear, Getaway, Terminator 2, Demolition Man

Good games somewhere in my top 25 with significant balance flaws keeping them out of top 10: BS Dracula, Whitewater, Creature, High Roller Casino

Games that seem like they should be ranked highly but somehow just don't quite feel like they merit it: Ripley's, TOTAN, Stern Star Trek, Road Show

Overrated games that I personally can't stand even though everybody else likes: Medieval Madness, Theatre of Magic, Funhouse, Banzai Run

 

[jonesjb]

I like vikingerik's approach, so I'm going to follow in his categorization:

Top 5: Attack from Mars, The Shadow, Twilight Zone, STTNG, Lord of the Rings

Top 10: Whitewater, Indiana Jones, Medieval Madness, Congo, Monster Bash

Just miss: World Cup Soccer, The Addams Family, BSD

Notable top games that I don't personally have enough experience with to rate properly: Spiderman, Tron, Judge Dredd, Simpsons Pinball Party

Personal favorites that I always find lots of fun, but objectively probably aren't quite deep enough to make top 10: TFTC, Jack-Bot, Cirqus Voltaire, Freddy A Nightmare on Elm Street, Johnny Mnemonic

Good games somewhere in my top 25 with significant balance flaws keeping them out of top 10: Theatre of Magic, Scared Stiff

Games that seem like they should be ranked highly but somehow just don't quite feel like they merit it: Cyclone, Funhouse

Overrated games that I personally can't stand even though everybody else likes: AC/DC, TOTAN, Creature from the Black Lagoon, Cactus Canyon

 

[PET3R]

Great. I am not ready yet to submit my top 10 but want to say that vikingerik, you have surprised me with CC, SS and High Roller. These are my top 10 favourite games but I did not expect you to place first 2 so high and mentioning High Roller at all. I thought I was being biased when I wanted to put SS in top 10, but I don't think there is anything that would be wrong with the table. Yes crate shots do go high but they go high bit by bit and force you to make most of the wizard. By completing the Scared Stiff (10 shot wizard) on the very first attempt, you will be able to play more wizards, compared to you taking 2-3 attempts to complete the wizard.

 

[PET3R]

Monster Bash - I would like to discuss this table bit more with you, so any comments will be greatly appreciated. I have played this table IRL so I understand now when vikingerik was talking about the feel good shots. My concern are the rules. While in all other top 10 tables you are feeling the progress and every next step escalates towards the climax that you get by reaching the wizard, in MB this is missing. In MB I feel that wizard mode is there to be reached at any moment, and you either get there or not. The problem is stacking the multiball with other modes. Once you do it, reaching the wizard is 10x easier if not more. Therefore the only strategy you will use is to prepare as many modes as you can before starting them off followed by multiball. If unsuccessful you are back to beginning. We have spoken about being punished for an early Merlin's shot in MM but I feel this is the same case here with Frank multiball. I had so many games where I had many modes ready and hit Frank by mistake to start mutliball. Having bride next to frank makes it even worse. I had many games where I had to do last shot to left bride ramp but I hit Frank instead. I think this table would be much better off if it remembered progress in each mode. So if you missed the completion of your bride by 1 shot you would not have to restart the second time from the scratch.
Somewhere in my previous post I have also discussed how I have reached Monsters of Rock during the Monster Bash without even knowing how. Correct me if I am wrong but this table is very dependant on mutliballs and correct timing (where you need bit of luck not to miss a shot). This is almost the same as playing the older pinball tables where the whole point of table was to maximise the jackpot before scoring it. It comes to that 1 point in game which is the key to success, and if you mess it up during that 1 single moment you either have to start again or you lost the game. This is why I would rate MB much much lower in our top 10 not even putting it in top 5. This is not final and I might change my mind depending on the valid comments you provide. Looking forward to discussing this table.

 

[vikingerik]

Great. I am not ready yet to submit my top 10 but want to say that vikingerik, you have surprised me with CC, SS and High Roller. These are my top 10 favourite games but I did not expect you to place first 2 so high and mentioning High Roller at all.

Yeah, I had Cactus Canyon on the "just miss" list, then the top 10 wasn't full so I had to pick one to move up. They all have good arguments for that spot (particularly Spider-man). Ultimately I thought that if I could go play any one right now, which would it be, and CC felt like it drew me the most. CC and SS are similar games, both on the easy side, but that's perfectly okay. Their balance flaws in TPA (bonus X, a million crate hits) don't really show up on the real machines with shorter games.

I like High Roller Casino a lot, and it was a shame the TPA conversion turned out poorly. HRC is a Keith Johnson game, where there's always a certain flowy elegance to the rules helping the player along. HRC has the same thing I like about Monster Bash, two different tracks of progress so there is a lot of emergent strategy in how you balance working towards both at the same time. The balance problem in HRC is the randomness of the casino games, it's literally just a dice roll as to whether you pass them in one try or twelve. The "Cheat Game" feature helps but isn't quite enough. I wish the game had used that to balance out the casino games, something like automatically enable the cheat for like your third try at a game or always if it's the last game you need for the wizard mode.

 

[vikingerik]

Monster Bash - While in all other top 10 tables you are feeling the progress and every next step escalates towards the climax that you get by reaching the wizard, in MB this is missing. In MB I feel that wizard mode is there to be reached at any moment, and you either get there or not.

This is very much true but this is why MB is so good. You feel the escalation on other tables that move towards the wizard mode linearly. You kill all the saucers or castles or door panels or mansion rooms or continents or illusions or Enterprise missions or Barts in a long straight line. As you get more of them, you feel how you're getting closer to the finish line.

Monster Bash doesn't have this linear escalation. It runs all the progress tracks in parallel, not serial. I love this so much because it puts all the control in the player's hands. It's entirely your choice what order to go for everything. The escalation is all up to you in the risk-reward for how much you want to try to stack.

I had so many games where I had many modes ready and hit Frank by mistake to start mutliball.

Weren't you talking about picking the best skill testing games? If you're skillful, you will hit the mode you want and not Frank by mistake.

The tall steep Frank ramp is much less likely to accidentally shoot than the Merlin's saucer where any errant ball can roll into it.

The problem is stacking the multiball with other modes. Once you do it, reaching the wizard is 10x easier if not more. Therefore the only strategy you will use is to prepare as many modes as you can before starting them off followed by multiball. If unsuccessful you are back to beginning. We have spoken about being punished for an early Merlin's shot in MM but I feel this is the same case here with Frank multiball.

Two big differences between MB and MM:

MB never *requires* any stacking. Sure, it's easier, but you always have the option to start and play a monster mode with just your single ball. In MM, you *absolutely must* run and win Trolls before or with Madness, or you *cannot* get the 10 troll kills for wizard mode.

MB has many different stacks available: Frank multiball, Mosh Pit, and Monster Bash itself. MM gives you just the *one* try at Troll Madness and the punishment is to cycle all the way around through Royal Madness.

There are so many different tools and options in Monster Bash that I think it makes for the perfect skill testing game. If you can't complete the monster modes with three different multiball stacks available, or by itself with a single ball... well then you don't deserve to make the wizard mode.

I think this table would be much better off if it remembered progress in each mode. So if you missed the completion of your bride by 1 shot you would not have to restart the second time from the scratch.
Somewhere in my previous post I have also discussed how I have reached Monsters of Rock during the Monster Bash without even knowing how.

These concerns are related. You're supposed to use Monster Bash itself to complete the last modes that you need for Monsters of Rock. That's your bonus of extra progress towards modes that you have previously failed. Also, the scoop random award knows what you're doing and will usually help start the last monster modes that you need. And then it's up to you and your skill to complete it.

 

[vikingerik]

Games that seem like they should be ranked highly but somehow just don't quite feel like they merit it: Ripley's, TOTAN, Stern Star Trek, Road Show

Got it. Thanks to the "Tables that fired other tables" thread. That's what's happening with this list. All of these are inferior to other machines that do the same things. If I want an overstuffed feature-crazy Lawlor game, I'll play TZ or Addams over Ripley's or Road Show. Williams STTNG is still a bit better than Stern Star Trek. I'm not quite 100% sure what overshadows TOTAN (it's hard to concisely describe what that machine does), but I think it's Cirqus Voltaire and maybe Scared Stiff.

 

[invitro]

I'll play TZ or Addams over Ripley's or Road Show.

Neither TZ or TAF has any feature like RBIoN's additive tour bonus or RS's souvenirs. Those features are important enough that neither RBIoN or RS are dominated by TZ or TAF. They are their own tables.

Domination does happen, just not with these machines. Look to Sega... Goldeneye, Space Jam, Twister, and JP Lost World are all essentially the same game (IIRC as always) and so you can pick the one with your favorite minor difference, like the satellite in Goldeneye, and the others then become worthless. (I do not remember these tables very well, but I do remember well that this is how I felt back in the 1990's.)

EDIT: Apollo 13 shouldn't be in that group of Segas.

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

Look to Sega... Goldeneye, Apollo 13, Space Jam, Twister, and JP Lost World are all essentially the same game (IIRC as always) and so you can pick the one with your favorite minor difference, like the satellite in Goldeneye, and the others then become worthless. (I do not remember these tables very well, but I do remember well that this is how I felt back in the 1990's.)

Let's look at the most recent addition to TPA - Frankenstein.

Now compare it with Jurassic Park, and the two major, non-intersecting scoring tracks in both games.

 

[Rich Lehmann]

Cactus Canyon sucks monkey balls.

 

[MontanaFrank]

Cactus Canyon sucks monkey balls.

Cactus Canyon was the last machine, or last gasp, of the golden age of DMD displays that was all the rage of the 90's. Even though this machine/table may suck for some, Cactus Canyon deserves to be part TPA because of it's historical importance.