Request No more Gottlieb tables

[Zombie Aladdin]

Oh, yes it does have the right outlane vacuum. I'm quite dependent on that gate to establish my rhythm. The bumpers on the machine I've played it on also tends to send the ball flying at one of the right targets, upon which it will bounce every which way, inevitably to the slingshots and down an outlane. It's difficult to keep control over the ball.

I have reached 1 million points on the real Space Shuttle only once. This is a machine I regularly play on, and I thought it was pretty cool to see it in Pinball Arcade.

 

[Espy]

You open the airlock to save your ball... you can tell Space Shuttle wasn't made by a NASA enthusiast

 

[Zaphod77]

The bumpers on the machine I've played it on also tends to send the ball flying at one of the right targets, upon which it will bounce every which way, inevitably to the slingshots and down an outlane. It's difficult to keep control over the ball.

Now this I can believe. I haven't played space shuttle that much in real life, but it didn't seem that brutal to me. there's a wide variation in machine difficulty in real life, though.

Some but not all pinbots have the jets to left outlane vacuum. It's common enough that many tournament players will soft plunge, especially if they aren't confident in the skill shot.

 

[Fungi]

Doesn't a soft plunge end up in the same place as any other plunge in Pinbot?

 

[Espy]

Doesn't a soft plunge end up in the same place as any other plunge in Pinbot?

If it doesn't even make it to the first hole in the spiral, it exits the plunge path at a lower point.

 

[Zaphod77]

if done right it wont trip any switches.

 

[DokkenRokken]

There's still a few Gottlieb tables that NEED to be made, mainly "Freddy" and "Rescue 911".

 

[kinggo]

no, not those. Freddy is OK, but there are better ones.
Rescue 911, sure. If we get some 20 premier games before that one.

 

[superballs]

Oh, yes it does have the right outlane vacuum. I'm quite dependent on that gate to establish my rhythm. The bumpers on the machine I've played it on also tends to send the ball flying at one of the right targets, upon which it will bounce every which way, inevitably to the slingshots and down an outlane. It's difficult to keep control over the ball.

I have reached 1 million points on the real Space Shuttle only once. This is a machine I regularly play on, and I thought it was pretty cool to see it in Pinball Arcade.

One of the PAPA vids i saw rarely had that bumper to outlane issue, ball would usually drop onto the right sling, then go crazy or something

 

[David Pannozzo]

Kinggo, Rescue 911 has to be made, along with Freddy, Surf N Safari, and a few other Premier games. Did I mention Rescue 911, also Stargate would be cool to.

 

[Zaphod77]

Surf N Safari is actually good, and can't really be exploited the way later games can.

Oh i made a layout for that table for VP.

Look for Zaphod, Destruk and Lander.

 

[DokkenRokken]

no, not those. Freddy is OK, but there are better ones.
Rescue 911, sure. If we get some 20 premier games before that one.

No way and not even close.

 

[kinggo]

do you really like that helicopter gimmick so much?

 

[Zombie Aladdin]

I've never played any of those tables except Freddy. What's so bad about the other ones?

 

[Captain B. Zarre]

Surf N Safari is actually good, and can't really be exploited the way later games can.

Except for the Super Jackpots during multiball... saw someone once get a 30m Super in a tournament once

 

[Bowflex]

I've never played any of those tables except Freddy. What's so bad about the other ones?

I think the cheesiness factor goes into play with the premier era gottliebs. You can tell a lot of corners were cut and many things were probably done to save money. A great number of their tables tie in to an obvious licensed theme (at least at the time) but there is no license so you get a second rate imitation. Not sure if they couldn't secure it but it seems like they were trying to cash in on the success of Ghostbusters for a game like Bone Busters Inc and create something on their own rather than pay for the license. Plus these games typically came out years later after the hype died down and there was no real tie-in opportunity to promote the license with the game. Raven=Rambo, Arena=Conan, Class of 1812=Munsters, Hollywood Heat=Miami Vice and a few others. In all fairness, licensed games really did not come out back then but you just take a look at the blatant ripoff and laugh. By the time you get to Stargate and Freddy, they were putting more effort into the look of the tables and getting the licenses. The real deal! Those are also the best tables that Premier put out because they finally did it right in all aspects. Not a second rate experience but the full experience.
The other aspect is the features many of their games have are just gaudy. Gottliebs were very well built but having the giant clock on Lights Camera Action or some of the giant toys in their games just really ruins the art/presentation for many. I think they did have some great balance in some games but look at the bonus portion of Cactus Jack. Half the playfield is a circle filled with lights for bonus awards. You could use that space for so much other artwork to tie into the theme. There are other art issues with color choices and artwork as well. Appearance goes a long way and placed next to the old WMS and Data East machines, there was just no competition for a first impression.

 

[DokkenRokken]

do you really like that helicopter gimmick so much?

That has nothing to do with it, and I'm really getting tired of people always assuming it's the toys that attract people. I love the table because it's got great challenges, nice skill shots, decent art, and I grew up liking the TV show. The Helicopter is merely a bonus.

I think the cheesiness factor goes into play with the premier era gottliebs. You can tell a lot of corners were cut and many things were probably done to save money. A great number of their tables tie in to an obvious licensed theme (at least at the time) but there is no license so you get a second rate imitation. Not sure if they couldn't secure it but it seems like they were trying to cash in on the success of Ghostbusters for a game like Bone Busters Inc and create something on their own rather than pay for the license. Plus these games typically came out years later after the hype died down and there was no real tie-in opportunity to promote the license with the game. Raven=Rambo, Arena=Conan, Class of 1812=Munsters, Hollywood Heat=Miami Vice and a few others. In all fairness, licensed games really did not come out back then but you just take a look at the blatant ripoff and laugh. By the time you get to Stargate and Freddy, they were putting more effort into the look of the tables and getting the licenses. The real deal! Those are also the best tables that Premier put out because they finally did it right in all aspects. Not a second rate experience but the full experience.
The other aspect is the features many of their games have are just gaudy. Gottliebs were very well built but having the giant clock on Lights Camera Action or some of the giant toys in their games just really ruins the art/presentation for many. I think they did have some great balance in some games but look at the bonus portion of Cactus Jack. Half the playfield is a circle filled with lights for bonus awards. You could use that space for so much other artwork to tie into the theme. There are other art issues with color choices and artwork as well. Appearance goes a long way and placed next to the old WMS and Data East machines, there was just no competition for a first impression.

+1

I look at Gottlieb tables as generic brand vs BIG NAME brand... like Target vs the Dollar Store.

For me, Gottlieb tables are hit or miss. I love "Freddy" and "Class of 1812", but cannot stand crap like "Tee'd Off". I literally hate everything about that game, from the music to the gameplay.

 

[Zaphod77]

Except for the Super Jackpots during multiball... saw someone once get a 30m Super in a tournament once

That's not really exploiting at all, that's simply good multiball play. you have to shoot the Pipeline, Rapids, Boomerang, Whirlpool and Arcade targets to light that super, so it's not really an exploit at all. And three of those shots do not return the ball to the flippers.

 

[kinggo]

crap like "Tee'd Off".

well, I really like that crap.

 

[Zombie Aladdin]

I think the cheesiness factor goes into play with the premier era gottliebs. You can tell a lot of corners were cut and many things were probably done to save money. A great number of their tables tie in to an obvious licensed theme (at least at the time) but there is no license so you get a second rate imitation. Not sure if they couldn't secure it but it seems like they were trying to cash in on the success of Ghostbusters for a game like Bone Busters Inc and create something on their own rather than pay for the license. Plus these games typically came out years later after the hype died down and there was no real tie-in opportunity to promote the license with the game. Raven=Rambo, Arena=Conan, Class of 1812=Munsters, Hollywood Heat=Miami Vice and a few others. In all fairness, licensed games really did not come out back then but you just take a look at the blatant ripoff and laugh. By the time you get to Stargate and Freddy, they were putting more effort into the look of the tables and getting the licenses. The real deal! Those are also the best tables that Premier put out because they finally did it right in all aspects. Not a second rate experience but the full experience.
The other aspect is the features many of their games have are just gaudy. Gottliebs were very well built but having the giant clock on Lights Camera Action or some of the giant toys in their games just really ruins the art/presentation for many. I think they did have some great balance in some games but look at the bonus portion of Cactus Jack. Half the playfield is a circle filled with lights for bonus awards. You could use that space for so much other artwork to tie into the theme. There are other art issues with color choices and artwork as well. Appearance goes a long way and placed next to the old WMS and Data East machines, there was just no competition for a first impression.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. It's probably pretty clear by now that I'm doing a lot of catch-up work with pinball, and I wasn't there during these moments to understand why people feel the way they do with certain things. It makes a lot of sense--I never even thought of these Premier tables being something of mockbusters, if you're familiar with that term, but now that you point it out, I have GOT to take a look at these tables when I see them.

Would Tee'd Off, then, be a knockoff of Caddyshack?

That has nothing to do with it, and I'm really getting tired of people always assuming it's the toys that attract people. I love the table because it's got great challenges, nice skill shots, decent art, and I grew up liking the TV show. The Helicopter is merely a bonus.

I look at Gottlieb tables as generic brand vs BIG NAME brand... like Target vs the Dollar Store.

For me, Gottlieb tables are hit or miss. I love "Freddy" and "Class of 1812", but cannot stand crap like "Tee'd Off". I literally hate everything about that game, from the music to the gameplay.

I'm guessing you mean Target as the big name brand and Dollar Store as a generic brand, though of course dollar store would be a discount chain.

From what I can see, toys do NOT attract people. (I agree with you there.) I feel like when people talk about bash toys or whatnot bringing in beginners, they've forgotten what it's like to be a beginner. What really draws people to a pinball machine are the theme, the audiovisual package, and, once a beginner starts playing it, if he or she feels like he or she accomplished something.

A design philosophy at Blizzard Entertainment is to make the player feel like a champion at the beginning of the game. This makes them want to come back for more, as they've had a taste of what it's like to feel like they're good at something. Blizzard doesn't need some weird gimmick at the center of any of its games divorced from everything else, the video game equivalent of a bash toy--it just needs an interesting theme to draw people in, good art direction, and the aforementioned game design structure. That can also be done in pinball, and enduringly popular pinball machines have all three of those.

(And personally, if you're going to have a bash toy, make it integrated into everything. Just as anti-gravity racing is omnipresent in Mario Kart 8, the boxer in Champion Pub is indeed the focus and is a good use of a bash toy.)